You Couldn’t Make It Up

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

A news story local to me makes one wonder what this man was doing in open prison

H

A drug dealer who became the first to be convicted of trafficking children under new modern slavery laws has absconded from an open prison.

Derbyshire Police said Zakaria Mohammed was found to be missing from HMP Sudbury on 11 November.

Mohammed is serving 14 years after trafficking teenagers to sell heroin and crack cocaine through his network.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I fear I am going down a treacherous path so suffice to say I am gettting increasingly depressed at what passes as law and order in this country of late.

Bill D.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Depends how far through his sentence he was.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

A quick google and it seems he was arrested just over 4 years ago.

Martin C

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Quick google search shows that Zakaria Mohammed was arrested on 26th March 2018 and sentenced on 4th October 2018. In Birmingham Crown Court he pleaded guilty to all charges.

His period of imprisonment would have counted as starting from his arrest as he was held in custody pending trial and the 14 years would be reduced to 7 in custody ('automatic release', with the remainder being served on licence) given his pleading guilty and presumably 'good behavior' whilst imprisoned. He has therefore served approximately four and a half years thus far. He would have been assessed and seen by a Parole Board before being moved to 'category D' (Open Prison in popular language) and have been considered no risk to the public and a low risk of absconding. He would have been serving his sentence under category D as a 'half-way house' in preparation for release and with the object of rehabilitation.

When recaptured he will now serve the full term of his sentence in secure prison.

& Martin beat me to it!!!

Phil

Edited By Weary on 18/11/2022 16:13:03

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

What D H sent him to an open prison, they should be sacked immediately.

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

A relative of mine was in an open prison

He had a job and was allowed a car to get to work.

The world is a strange place!

Jim

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by jimmy b on 18/11/2022 17:33:48:

A relative of mine was in an open prison

He had a job and was allowed a car to get to work.

The world is a strange place!

Jim

Not if the object of the excercise is to reform offenders into working citizens. Or you could just put them all in Max security and raise the income tax rate by 5%.

regards Martin

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 18/11/2022 18:11:56:

Not if the object of the excercise is to reform offenders into working citizens.

Is there any evidence that it works?

 

| Or you could just put them all in Max security and raise the income tax rate by 5%.

Why is it assumed that something new always implies new taxes? Why not re-prioritise the existing tax base?

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 18/11/2022 18:58:02

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

Posted by old mart on 18/11/2022 17:17:02:

What D H sent him to an open prison, they should be sacked immediately.

or made to serve the rest of the sentence

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Only that few abscond from open prisons and the reoffending rate currently stands at 31.8%

regards Martin

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 18/11/2022 18:57:13:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 18/11/2022 18:11:56:

Not if the object of the excercise is to reform offenders into working citizens.

Is there any evidence that it works?

| Or you could just put them all in Max security and raise the income tax rate by 5%.

Why is it assumed that something new always implies new taxes? Why not re-prioritise the existing tax base?

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 18/11/2022 18:58:02

OK but the prison costs will go up so either higher taxes or cuts to other services. Personally better education and training in prisons and re-entry programs is a preferred way to go.

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Worked with a Guy arrested for Drunk driving, recieved a light sentence of working weekends at the Sherriffs Dept for around 2-3 years. They let Him go to work during the week. He recieved the job of washing the Sherriffs cars. They knew He was an alcoholic and let Him keep a beer nearby while washing cars.

A friend had a Pinto hatch back, He got stopped for driving too slow. When He got out several empty beer cans fell out of the car. The police asked if they were His, He said yes but He drank them at lunch at work. The hatch back was full of cans up to the top of the seats. Next day at work He got a wheel barrow and emptied 3 loads out.

Another coworker had 5 driving under impaired,kept on driving with no license.

I hope it has changed by now.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A lot of it makes no sense

…unless the Law is a business for making money out of criminals

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

I suppose it depends on whether your political ideology considers the purpose of prison is to punish the offenders, to provide a deterrent to potential offenders or to protect the rest of the population from the incarcerated. 'Political ideology' rather than 'the evidence suggests' because the law-makers seem uninterested in rational arguments based on evidence.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Counterintuitively, the criminology research by criminologists who study the data on such things shows there is a much lower recidivism rate associated with open prisons. The longer a crim is kept in a closed prison, the higher the rate of recidivism.

For example, the recidivism rate in Scandinavia where open prisons are the norm is only about 20 per cent. In the USA where prisons are draconian and worse, the recidivism rate is 70 per cent. So it makes economic and social sense to have fewer crims coming back for a second stay at HM's expense, so it makes sense to use more open prisons.

The old theory that harsher penalties lead to lower crime rates has been disproven over and over, supported by the data. The crime rate was quite high in Charles Dickens' times when death penalties for minor crime were common, along with transportation to the colonies etc, public floggings etc etc.

But of course, politicians today constantly cash in on public perceptions and fears and talk up harsher penalties so they can appear "tough on crime" and win votes. And the media beats it up for all its worth because manufactured outrage sells newspapers/generates clicks. So people wrongly assume that tougher jail terms would reduce crime because that is the (false) message they are bombarded with by self-serving pollies and media types..

It does seem pretty awful that old mate the child trafficker should be getting it so easy so soon after such a dreadful crime against children. However, for every occasional bad egg like him who legs it, there are thousands more who do their time and do not re-offend. So that is the end game, I guess.

[Peter KroghParticipant @peterkrogh76576]

Well said, Hopper!

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Agree with Hopper.

Statistically, conclusions based on sample sizes of one are considered rather unreliable. But they make great newspaper headlines.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

There is, I feel a real , disconnect between the public perception of the justice system and the aims and practice of the justice system perpetuated largely by the popular press.

Prisons are not as some think there to punish, loss of liberty is the punishment. With proper funding prisons should be primarily about reform. With lack of money however their function becomes largely one of containment.

When a sentence is handed down the expectation is that a certain proportion must be served before consideration of early release based on behaviour and acknowledgment of wrongdoing, in other words signs of reform. Failure to demonstrate this results in longer incarceration, a system that provides reward for progress and a stick which enables prisons to keep discipline. Without the hope of earlier release prisons would be largely unmanageable without the use of large scale use of force and segregation which would further alienate inmates from society.
regards Martin

[Anonymous]

Posted by Hopper on 19/11/2022 04:25:41:

For example, the recidivism rate in Scandinavia where open prisons are the norm is only about 20 per cent. In the USA where prisons are draconian and worse, the recidivism rate is 70 per cent.

Not necessarily disagreeing but just to point out that you are not comparing a single variable there (open vs closed prisons) but also two very different countries (both in terms of social norms and general nature/extent of crime).

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

Great danger in comparing statistics in criminology( and other spheres) between countries. Sweden and Norway have vastly different social structure to USA. Per capita income, social support, drugs and educational standards, almost defy comparison.

Contrary to some assertions there is good evidence that increasing sentencing reduces crime. The problem is that the payback of expensive incarceration is very poor and non linear. So 10% increase in sentence may produce but a 2-4% reduction in overall crime.

We all conflate the feckless and socially inept criminal who make up the majority with the small number of nasty and socially unacceptable bad @@@@ards.

The former should be offered every support to encourage rehabilitation. Currently they may leave prison on a Friday evening with uncertain digs and no money. The system has done its job. Are we surprised that they nick a car or gravitate to the known source of money viz drugs?

The smaller group of bad bad people should not be given such consideration as I believe that, say with paedophiles, that the leopard does not change its spots.

There is good evidence that the certainty of being caught and punished is a much better deterrent than the length of incarceration. The criminal never thinks he will be caught.

So I would advise governments to improve detection rates , be more realistic in who poses a real threat to society and to recognise that rehabilitation does not stop at the prison gate.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 19/11/2022 12:53:22:

Prisons are not as some think there to punish, loss of liberty is the punishment.

I imagine the "some" would include most of those that have actually been on the receiving end of the crime, or close to it, rather than considering it from a purely academic perspective.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 19/11/2022 17:45:44:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 19/11/2022 12:53:22:

Prisons are not as some think there to punish, loss of liberty is the punishment.

I imagine the "some" would include most of those that have actually been on the receiving end of the crime, or close to it, rather than considering it from a purely academic perspective.

What I mean is the loss of liberty is the punishment, we have abandoned hard labour, the crank, the birch etc. It’s not about revenge even if “make them pay” is a very human response. Restorative justice can be very effective too in bringing offenders face to face with the results of their actions. It helps the victims too as does victim statements to n court.

regards Martin

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

It's a good job this political thread's subject was not about Brexit and it's consequences or it would have been shut down in very short order. I can only assume that I have been incorrect in my thinking that the application of justice is a political issue and is not subject to political debate and opinion otherwise it would not have been allowed to be raised on this model engineering forum.

[Author]

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