Year of Engineering

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 16/12/2018 14:17:26:

…

As to the claim that the core of engineering is the maths, there is some truth to this, but the math used to be be done with a calculator (remember slide rules, I do!) and a book of formulas, or today a computer running software that literally does it all for you.

…

As a man who once had the Job Title of 'Software Engineer', I am delighted to confirm that the engineers who produce software are, in fact, the absolute pinnacle of all engineering achievement. We software engineers do the stuff that's too difficult for the rest of you thickos!

Or perhaps not. I like this joke. An scientist, engineer, a gardener, and a computer programmer are debating whose job was originally most important. 'Me' says the scientist, 'without my understanding engineers are just blundering about out in the dark.' 'Rubbish' replies the engineer, 'if it wasn't for engineers, we'd all be living in caves and there would be no scientists or any of the other smart-arses who think they know best.' 'Oh dear' says the gardener, 'You're both wrong – gardener is the first job. Before God created the Garden of Eden, everything was chaos and void.' After a short pause the computer programmer says – 'and who do you think caused all the chaos…'

Seriously though, surely human enterprise is a team game? When was the last time an individual invented anything new from scratch? Watt didn't invent the steam engine. Faraday didn't invent electricity. Stephenson didn't invent railways. Whitworth didn't invent screw threads. Morse didn't invent telegraphy. Bell didn't invent the telephone. Edison didn't invent the light bulb. Marconi didn't invent radio. The Wright Brothers didn't invent the aeroplane. Diesel didn't invent the Diesel engine. Logie Baird didn't invent television. Berners-Lee didn't invent the internet. All great men, but everyone depends on everyone else.

Dave

[Barnaby WildeParticipant @barnabywilde70941]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2018 12:54:03:

Yes, but you challenged Duncan to evidence the "benefits that Engineers have brought, and continue to bring, to Society." not to list great inventor-engineers!

And I did mean the tin can!

Neil

You still don't get it do you.

I don't wish to belittle the very many accomplishments that engineers bring to society, but they are seldom the originators of the 'spark' that caused someone to ask an engineer to make it so.

P.S. One of my personal heroes & a man whose work I have studied intensively is Sir Humphrey Davey (a chemist) & I feel it is important in the general scheme of things to remember that Sir HD himself mentions Michael Faraday as his greatest discovery.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/12/2018 15:13:12:All great men, but everyone depends on everyone else.

Dave

Well said.

 

Posted by Mick Charity on 16/12/2018 16:04:16:

P.S. One of my personal heroes & a man whose work I have studied intensively is Sir Humphrey Davey (a chemist) & I feel it is important in the general scheme of things to remember that Sir HD himself mentions Michael Faraday as his greatest discovery.

I see Davy as not giving due credit there to Faraday's employer, the bookbinder George Riebau, who was the one who supplied his apprentice with tickets to attend Davy's lectures at the Royal Institution. Davy was actually discouraging at first towards Faraday's scientific experimentation; on meeting him for the first time he urged him to stick to his day job of bookbinding.

There's an interesting monograph on Faraday written by one of his descendants in this year's Society of Bookbinders' journal that sheds light on this and other matters.

 

Sorry for so many edits; that's what comes from typing when you're not wearing your glasses.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 16/12/2018 17:08:11

Edited By Bill Phinn on 16/12/2018 17:08:45

Edited By Bill Phinn on 16/12/2018 17:10:45

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mick Charity on 16/12/2018 16:04:16:

 

You still don't get it do you.

 

I don't want to get in a battle with you Mick, but you're attacking a straw man.

If you wanted examples of world-changing inventions by engineers, that's what you should have asked. But we are answering the question you actually asked…

Neil

 

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2018 18:36:01

[Anonymous]

All I can say is that I consider myself lucky not to have had the misfortune to work with some of the posters on this thread during my engineering career.

Andrew

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Andrew, indeed!

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Well I do seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest. I carefully did not mention any distinction between university educated engineers and apprentice trained engineers, as either and both are engineers in my book. Any university trained engineer who disparages the apprentice trained engineer wants a sharp kick up the rectum, and any apprentice trained engineer who thinks he can manage without any mathematics needs the chip removing from his shoulder. The great engineers of the past came from both routes, Brunel was highly technically educated and his calculation books are a thing of wonder, Frank Whittle was a Cambridge graduate but started out as an RAF apprentice.

Yes someone coming out of university with no practical experience is going to take time to be of any use, but without the technical knowledge never will be of any use in the design of aircraft, power stations, bridges etc etc. My own view is that the sandwich course or day release/night school of old was a much better route, but lots of large employers nowadays seem to think that fully trained and experienced people emerge from the woodwork.

The idea that 50% of all young people should go to university was political stupidity of the highest order. Some very bright people will decide not to go, perhaps joining the armed forces or branching out on their own. This means we have people of less than average intelligence going to university, incurring huge debts and coming out with degrees of dubious value.

To finish, anyone who thinks that a computer solves all the stress problems hasn't been there. All a computer does is speed up the calculations. Admittedly they do allow calculations which would have been impractical previously, but this is very rarely needed. Back in the 1930s finite element stress analysis was done by rooms full of people, usually women. It must have taken months, nowadays the same sums take hours, but lots of stuff is still done by manual calculation, although not I will admit with slide rules (I've still got mine).

Good man learns by his mistakes, very good man learns by other people's. How? By book learning

[Robert DoddsParticipant @robertdodds43397]

The normally superbly rich English language let us down when it, perhaps inadvertently, associated the title "Engineer" with the motors of Ford, Watt, Bentley et al. by spelling it with an E rather than an I and in so doing destroying the Latin link to ingenuity from whence it was derived. The French and many other continental languages retain the I spelling and this helps in establishing a sensible hierarchy of job titles as gleaned from a Google search

French translation of 'engineer'

engineer

[ˌɛndʒɪˈnɪəʳ ]

noun

1. (with degree in engineering) ingénieur mf

He’s an engineer. Il est ingénieur.

2. (Britain) (= repairman) réparateur/trice m/f

3. (US) mécanicien/ienne m/f

4. (= skilled worker)

mechanical engineer ingénieur m/f mécanicien(ne)
central heating engineer chauffagiste mf
telephone engineer technicien(ne) m/f des télécommunications

Bob D

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/12/2018 14:34:05:

The year of Engineering is drawing to a close and sent me it's Christmas wishes.

Nice card, some of us actually get involved….

**LINK**

Regards

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Duncan, I agree with your assessments, I was about to write the same points myself. Colin

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

I can't remember the exact wording or source but I have read something like: An engineer is someone who can do for 50p what any fool can do for £1. It might be Neville Shute perhaps?

IMHO an inventor may invent things (as may an engineer) but the crux of the engineers role is to develop the idea into a working item, possibly with increased efficiency, reduced cost, mathematical rigour (stress, strength, material choice etc) and ease of manufacture as the invention becomes the finished product design.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 17/12/2018 13:00:11:

An engineer is someone who can do for 50p what any fool can do for £1.

Too late, the accountant has already found a source in China for 25p and will be charging £1.50 to cover his bonus.

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