X-axis power drive

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Hi all. I first became a "Beginner" in late 2018 with the arrival of my Warco WM290V lathe. On Saturday I became a beginner again when My WM18B mill arrived, (thank you Egyptian river pilot) and my hand-picked volunteers managed to carry it into my workshop.

I've seen several mentions on here of the capacity of a cast iron lathe bed to bend and/or twist. With that in mind I wonder if someone could tell me what is the risk of my much less substantial mill table doing the same with a dirty great lump of motor and gears hanging off one unsupported end?

Or do I worry too much?

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I looked at your mill specs and as long as there is clearance for the drive hanging below the bed at the right hand side the weight is not going to be a problem. Move the bed to its extreme left end and look before committing yourself. The weight of the common type on ebay is 6Kg.

Edited By old mart on 24/05/2021 14:28:25

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Old Mart, thank you Sir. I had a feeling they'd be quite a bit heavier than that. As the table is only about 40-odd mm deep it looked a wee bit susceptible to me, at least at reasonable extension.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Terry

According to legend the big three phase motor and gearbox power feeds used on older Bridgeports, up to early / mid 60s, were sufficiently heavy to bend the table over many years. Was told that it was not good practice to leave the feed end hanging way out to one side. Ive seen no evidence for this but that motor and feed box unit is very, very heavy. Two man lift off the floor heavy!

No issues with the little one on your mill.

That said its still good practice to park things pretty central when finishing work for the night. Its not a bad idea to regularly give the slideways and screws a decent oiling then wind the table from one end to the other a time or four on a fairly regular basis. Keeps adequately fresh oil on things so they move smoothly, helping to protect them and scrapes off all the dust and stuff. Over many years old, exposed oil starts turning into a varnish like substance on the little travelled parts which doesn't help free movement. Once a month, every other month or thereabouts should do.

Nail the regular "deeper clean and lube" habit early like wot I didn't!

Clive

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Haha, thank you Clive! I'm pretty much "into" the regular oil wiping now after finding one day that the chuck on the lathe had started lightly rusting overnight. Fettled when I realised I needed to keep my workshop conversion warm. My Arc type 2 vise arrives today and I'll mount that centrally. When the time comes to add the power feed I'll leave the table centred between the two while idle. Thanks again

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

You can make a very adequate power feed using a stepper motor that will work out cheaper and considerably lighter than one of those commercial ones.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Or a 24vdc wiper type motor unit that I'm building one from.

Martin P

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by martin perman on 25/05/2021 11:23:19:

Or a 24vdc wiper type motor unit that I'm building one from.

Martin P

I’ve just made a 12V version loosely based on THIS video.

I intend over-driving it for a faster return ‘cos I’ve used a 19V power supply to the speed controller. Fiddly to line up but works fine. All items on stock/to hand except £13 for the generously rated speed controller.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

I watched the very same video and thats why I decided on the 24vdc unit that he had used.

Martin P

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

+1 for stepper motor, you don't need to declutch it for hand winding, so all it needs is a tooth belt pulley instead of one of the handwheels and a bracket to mount it on

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by duncan webster on 26/05/2021 03:03:50:

+1 for stepper motor, you don't need to declutch it for hand winding, so all it needs is a tooth belt pulley instead of one of the handwheels and a bracket to mount it on

Not sure you won't need to declutch for hand winding. If the stepper circuit is powered, the holding torque of the stepper will block any input from the handwheel. You can turn off the circuit, and then it will be easy to turn the handwheel, but as the stepper is still connected you will generate back voltage into the stepper circuitry.

I don't know if the stepper controller can handle this, so with my powerfeed I added a clutch. This is how I went about it. **LINK**

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The advantage of the wiper motor is definitely cost. I was wondering if a window winder motor would work for a small mill.

My alternative plan was to coerce into use an old 7.2 volt ‘Skil’ screwdriver motor with an already fitted variable speed. It weighs less than half a kilogram but needed considerable speed reduction – so a couple of pulleys with a toothed belt drive. With aluminium bracketry it would likely weigh in at much less than 3kg.

The motor on my Centec 2B is only 1/8th HP, so not that much power should be needed for a mini mill?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I have seen the LEDs on the controller light up with the generated emf when driving a stepper, so I prefer to declutch for hand feeding just to be on the safe side. Plus, there is a reduction drive between stepper and screw so you are back-driving against the cogging torque of the motor. I just have a removable drive pin between the bored-out timing pulley and a hub that's keyed to the leadscrew.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Could you not put a simple switch into the stepper wiring so there is no circuit for the generated EMF to flow through? That way you can just flick the switch when you want to use the handwheel rather than having a mechanical clutch

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by JasonB on 26/05/2021 07:34:22:

Could you not put a simple switch into the stepper wiring so there is no circuit for the generated EMF to flow through? That way you can just flick the switch when you want to use the handwheel rather than having a mechanical clutch

I guess you could, and would be much simpler solution than a clutch.

NDIY, steppers are cheap, easy to install and control no gearboxes required, infact I mounted mine directly to the handwheel shaft.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Picking the wiper style motor for me is not because of cost, I wanted a simple system that if it goes wrong I can easily check and repair it, You are all discussing EMF and ways around it, I dont want that hassle.

Martin P

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by JasonB on 26/05/2021 07:34:22:

Could you not put a simple switch into the stepper wiring so there is no circuit for the generated EMF to flow through? That way you can just flick the switch when you want to use the handwheel rather than having a mechanical clutch

Through? If you short the stepper the cogging torque increases. If you open the circuit to the driver when it's energised you will probably blow it up.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John I was assuming if you want to go manual you switch the drive off therefore not energised and then flick a switch to stop EMF rather than a clutch. So as the switch "disconnects" the stepper you won't be shorting anything and as controller is off you won't be energising it.

The Sherline CNC machines suggest unplugging the steppers when using the retained handwheels, would my suggested switch not do the same thing but much quicker?

I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me could do it all with only one multipole switch to do both at the same time.

 

Edited By JasonB on 26/05/2021 08:46:28

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Some stepper drivers don't like being energised and not connected, though others are perfectly happy. Most suppliers specifically warn against connecting/disconnecting the motors when energised, especially disconnecting because of the inductive voltage spike. Sooner or later one will leave the drive circuit energised and throw the switch by mistake. But I really don't see the issue here – why make turning the handwheel harder by turning the stepper as well, especially through gearing? It's no great feat of engineering to add a removable drive pin. If you use a DC motor there will probably have to be gearing anyway, and a clutch of some sort needed.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

John, a disconnected direct driven stepper motor will offer next to no resistance and will be unnoticable when turning the handwheel. If geared then as you say it will be harder.

Mine is clutched, but if there was a way of disconnecting electrically I think it would be much easier and makes for a smaller, lighter installation…I think that's what Jason was trying to point out.

[Kevin Hodgkins 1Participant @kevinhodgkins1]

My power feed is a directly connected stepper motor. The stepper driver is always powered when the mill is on, but when not actively being driven, the motor is disabled using the drivers enable/disable input. It offers hardly any resistance to hand feeding.

My particular driver is a DM542T, but most stepper drivers I've come across have an input to the disable motor.

[Rob WheatleyParticipant @robwheatley66643]

I have fitted X and Z powerfeeds to my mill with nema 23 steppers, X is direct drive to the leadscrew, the Z is belt driven with a high reduction (6:1)

The X axis can be moved easily when the power is off but the Z is very stiff unless I unplug the stepper.

I am going to install relays to power down the drivers and disconnect the steppers if I need to move manually.

At some point, when I'm feeling brave, I will drill a hole in the top of the column and direct drive the Z too but will go to a nema 34 for that one.

[Terry KirkupParticipant @terrykirkup37827]

Well I've made steady progress since taking the bait. I'm pretty sure my methods are somewhat unorthodox , as are so many others on here but all with the desired result, and I enjoy looking at everyone elses' solutions, as varied as they are. I dived straight in after advice from John Haine and plenty of Googling and ended up with a Nema 34 9Nm closed loop stepper motor, PSU and controller. What didn't come with the kit, or indeed what wasn't even mentioned on Stepper-Online's web site, was the ubiquitous PWM thingy, viz:

So I located a few and bought them without a real clue as to how it would all fit together. Anyway, this puny item became something of an enemy very quickly. Which dimwit (apologies if you are seeing this, whoever you are) arranged for the controls to point in different directions? Absolutely nonsensical, surely? However, once I'd got the thing wired up and saw the motor respond correctly I sat down to ponder, and this is what I came up with:

A quick turning job, shame I only hadd 25mm diameter stock, but hey, I got there. So with a carefully chosen box having a suitable lid, they solved that little issue.

And this afternoon I got most of the gubbins mounted ready for the timing belts arriving and just hoping I haven't missed anything.

I will be covering up the slotted things to keep metal at bay and also running a nice earth lead between the mill and that ally end panel.

And incidentally, that Nema34 motor turned out to be WAY too big and heavy for the X-axis so it's movig up to the Z now, replaced by a Nema24 4Nm job.

Edited By Terry Kirkup on 18/07/2021 20:44:40

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