Would you chance it – bluefox tools MT4 alignment bar

[Mark Davison 1Participant @markdavison1]

I'd buy from one of the usual UK suspects but the only one that stocks something this long is out of stock. This appears to be shipping from the UK and has a tolerance specified in the ad so if it is way out I could try complaining and ask for a refund.

Has anyone tried Bluefox tools (India)?

[Mark Davison 1Participant @markdavison1]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’ve never had any dealings with them … but ‘years of practice’ drove me to look at the ebay site: which is very tidy and contains lots of positive feedback.

It also shows the business address:

Business seller information

Gurmeet Kaur

17 663 MILITARY ROAD PUNJABI BASTI

ANAND PARBAT NEW DELHI

110005 NEW DELHI

India

Value added tax number:

GB 382551390

… if you don't beat me to it, I will have a look on Google Earth later.

[ it may be a factory, or it may be someone’s bed-sit, but that’s worth knowing ]

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/10/2022 17:46:30

[Mark Davison 1Participant @markdavison1]

The VAT number is registered to the same name, not sure what to make of the address the VAT number is registered to. The address in Delhi is a backstreet, certainly not a factory.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sorry, Mark … I was just trying to post some more info, but this site logged me out

… back in a couple of minutes

.

O.K.

It doesn’t look like he does any actual manufacturing:

https://www.mastersindia.co/gst-search/?name=gurmeet-kaur&gstin=07AIKPK8115G1Z8

https://www.mastersindia.co/gst-search/?name=gurmeet-kaur&gstin=07AIKPK8115G1Z8

But, that said … “Box-Shifting” is a perfectly honourable profession, if you do it right.

MichaelG..

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/10/2022 18:24:24

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

Seems to have reasonable Ebay feedback, not too many negatives but not a very high overall total for an "international" trader. I think that I'd be tempted to take a punt.

Edited By Clive Brown 1 on 08/10/2022 18:23:03

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I bought an MT2 one a couple of years ago, direct from a different seller in India for £19.90 delivered.

The description is identical, apart from the bit about Bluefox and the shipping info.

These UK landed ones you mention are certainly cheaper then the ones being sold by my original Indian seller, who goes by the well known engineering suppliers name of Bargain-Megashop and now charges £34.68.

Seems to work fine for me

Bill

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I have two of Indian origin,a 7 1/2" and an 11 1/2", both with a MT2 end. After turning a 60 degree end on a steel 3/8 bolt in situ and checking between centres, the results were dissapointing, over 0.0005" tir. Then I realised my mistake, using a live centre in the tailstock. With a dead centre, the runout was affectively zero using a Baty 0.0001" DTI. And that was either way round for both bars. There are lots available now, including plain cylindrical ones. I don't know which company made them or even if they come from the same one.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

After reading all of the above, I felt it would be right for me to say something on this subject.

With a few exceptions, almost ALL companies selling from the region in and around Delhi on eBay and the like are traders.

Based on our procurement experience, rejection rate for test bars from this region is very high. There is also this ‘mine is longer than yours’ concept in the HOBBY test bar industry, which is wrong for the purpose of using a test bar.

There are customers as well as Indian suppliers who disagree with my observations. I have difficulty accepting most of their observations and accuracy statements, and they have difficulty considering the rejection rates which I presented them.

As a result, ARC refuses to sell any test bars. Delhi sellers dominate the world HOBBY test bar market because of cheap price. It is impossible to compete against them as well known Indian makers away from Delhi region, as well as well known Chinese makers can only supply accurate certified test bars – short correct lengths at about three times the cost of what is sold by Delhi traders.

Regardless of my observations, I know that high volumes of this product are sold from Delhi, even though I believe that very few HOBBY buyers have a clue about what they are buying with regards to this product. Perhaps it is still fit for their purpose, and perhaps I am wrong in my comments.

Ketan at ARC

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks, as always, for the enlightenment, Ketan

MichaelG.

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/10/2022 20:58:39:

After reading all of the above, I felt it would be right for me to say something on this subject.

Somewhere in the old newspapers in the back porch of this forum, there is a previous post you have written on this same subject.

I was about to post in this thread to suggest people read it very well before committing to buy. Maybe someone can find it and link it here.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Thanks for that Ketan, helpful and well informed as always.

I'm very much hobby and have no formal engineering training, other than telecoms.
When I shelled out £20 delivered from India, I presumed I would be receiving something, at best at the limit of tolerance, or maybe a reject out of the back door.

Prior to its arrival, all I had ever used was a length of silver steel, or the inner chromed rod from a car shock absorber or suspension strut. I'm not making or reconditioning machine tools, or doing any fancy setups in industry; I just use it for setting something up prior to a final tweak with a DTI.

In view of your comments, and for my own curiosity, I've just been out for a quick play, but it should be noted that the nearest I have to a temperature controlled environment is whether I open or close the garage door(s), nor is any of my kit formally calibrated.

Using a M&W Micro 2000, and a couple of comparator micrometers, they seem to confirm the diameter along the length to be within a tenth, and ovality as close as I can measure anyway, to be spot on (I guess it could be lobed in some way though); For those not familiar with either instrument, they take the measurement based on a constant spring pressure, rather than relying on me to operate a screw thread and know the feel of the mic. which would be down to my experience over the years (i.e. lacking).

Setup between centres on the lathe, and gently turned by hand on the stationary centres, with a tenths DTI, seems to show concentricity along it's length, and the DTI barely moved when set up in the middle of the test bar, so I guess it's not banana shaped, Similarly on the morse tapered section.

Installing it in the headstock taper, and again turning by hand, though obviously the spindle not just the bar, showed no measurable runout at the headstock, but about half a thou at the far end (obviously unsupported by the tailstock).
I guess this is as much a measure of the lathe as the test bar (I tried it in the horizontal as well as the vertical plane to try to allow for any sag.
The lathe is a Warco 720; Myford clone from the '70s, but runs in taper rollers, rather than a bronze bush.

Just for information, and an explanation of one reason, apart from safety, we were told at school not to lean on machine tools. With the setup stationary; test bar in the spindle morse taper and a tenths DTI touching the side of it at the distant end, tailstock not in use but locked at the far end of the bed, just resting my arm reasonably heavily on top of the tailstock showed a movement of about 2-3 tenths on the clock. The lathe is bolted down securely to the factory stand.
I just make and mend things, so not really chasing tenths, other than as an exercise and out of interest.

Whilst I do understand that said test bar may not meet NAMAS calibration standards, it will do what I need on a budget, though I fully understand Ketan's reluctance to sell something which would reflect badly on his business it it was out of spec.
It really does give confidence that something from his company should do the job as advertised, and it's likely me at fault, rather than the product if not.

I'd welcome comments from someone who is trained in this stuff

Bill.

Edited By peak4 on 09/10/2022 12:57:59

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by DC31k on 09/10/2022 12:17:33:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 08/10/2022 20:58:39:

After reading all of the above, I felt it would be right for me to say something on this subject.

Somewhere in the old newspapers in the back porch of this forum, there is a previous post you have written on this same subject.

I was about to post in this thread to suggest people read it very well before committing to buy. Maybe someone can find it and link it here.

I think that this was possibly the thread you were referring to link

Ketan at ARC

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That all sounds very reassuring, Bill

… Thanks for sharing your findings.

It looks like your particular example [and therein might lie the rub] is entirely adequate for day-to-day use, and as such represents great value for money.

If you want to understand how the other half live … it’s worth reading Schlesinger

.

.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ That nice Mr Stub Mandrel hosts a copy here:

http://www.stubmandrel.co.uk/component/content/article?id=13:dr-schelsinger-s-limits

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 09/10/2022 14:08:46

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by peak4 on 09/10/2022 12:55:00:

Whilst I do understand that said test bar may not meet NAMAS calibration standards, it will do what I need on a budget, though I fully understand Ketan's reluctance to sell something which would reflect badly on his business it it was out of spec.
It really does give confidence that something from his company should do the job as advertised, and it's likely me at fault, rather than the product if not.

In this particular situation, it is difficult to say if there is a fault, and if so, what is it, as there are many variables. In your excellent explanation, you have highlighted most of them, along with validation for the product you have used.

Our findings were variable – inconclusive (working for one purpose and not another over different lengths), tested by the late JS, and two U.K. based engineers known to us, and tests were conducted on a range of MT2,3 and 4 test bars from the Delhi region, in comparison to far more expensive reference test bars made in other parts of India and China (sources of which I prefer to keep confidential for commercial reasons).

However, I have yet to get a clear explanation on the subject from at least two manufacturers in the regions in and around Delhi area to give me the confidence to sell this product. As I have said before, they have sold plenty around the world, and there is no reason for them to comment on my observations.

Just for clarity on your last paragraph, we are happy to sell products based on market demand for lower or higher accuracy, provided we are able to validate or stand by the product with appropriate reasoning. There are still situations in which we at ARC could be wrong, and generally if a product fails/gets returned three times in a row within a short period of time, we will review the reason to ascertain if it is a product related or user related or expectation for the price related issue. If it is a product related issue, we will remove it from sale.

Ketan at ARC

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Good advice from Ketan as usual, I was thinking about a plain bar, but might attempt to make one out of a ground test bar made for a helicopter, but I will have to cut it and produce a centre in both ends. To do this I would have to buy a carbide centre drill as the bar is too hard for hss.

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