Woodwork Router Advice

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Trend used to publish a great little book on using the router. I don't know if they still do it. Can't find my copy right now so don't know the title.

Russell.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Brian, I am sure there is a rule of thumb for hinge position, but if there is, I don't know it! If you consider the stresses on the door when it is open, the weight of the door pulls the top hinge and pushes the bottom one. I generally put them between 12" and 18" from the top, and about 12" from the bottom. Heavier doors should use three hinges, firedoors have their own regulations!!

I really cannot believe anyone would imagine it was faster to use a router, especially on a new build site situation where the tools and the power supply and the jig have to be moved from door to door, and given that a large number (in my experience) of building site foremen are also joiners I can imagine what would be said if some one tried it on site!

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I would have thought the timesaving would be massive using a jig and router to cut the hinge recess, looking at large scale projects like hotels and the villas at Center Parcs they obviously use a router as they use the rounded corner hinges. I think even I could beat a professional wood spoiler if I have a router and he has a chisel.

Mike

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Phil, you have obviously not seen the small cordless routers that fit in the palm of your hand and are ideal for this sort of job. All doors would be done in one room and you would have one rouiter setup for the hinges and another for the locks (lock jig of coarse). No faffing about with bits of card or hardboard to space the door down from the top of the frame, the jig has a little swing away packer that sets things the right amount down from the door or frame, same jig does both and can be set for upto 4 hinges per door.

Gone are the days where a building contractor would have chippies on the cards who would be getting paid by the hour, its subbed out on a price per house/flat and the faster the guy gets it done the more he earns.

Typically if its two hinges on the door then 6" down and 9" up is the standard spacing, bottom is always higher incase your dog cocks its leg then the hinge won't rust

 

Edited By JasonB on 07/03/2015 16:26:13

Edited By JasonB on 07/03/2015 16:29:59

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by JasonB on 07/03/2015 16:24:13:……..

Typically if its two hinges on the door then 6" down and 9" up is the standard spacing, bottom is always higher incase your dog cocks its leg then the hinge won't rust

Edited By JasonB on 07/03/2015 16:26:13

I always undertsood the difference was so that the foreshortened perspective made them look the same when tanding by the door. or is it different for houses with Chihuahuas or Wolfhounds?

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

Posted by Brian Rice 1 on 07/03/2015 14:12:04:

How far from top and bottom do hinges go?

6" from the top and 9" from the bottom, in old money. That's for a standard internal or external door with two hinges. For a third hinge I normally put it roughly in the middle of the hanging stile, but avoiding any through tenons from the middle rail (otherwise you run the risk of the hinges screwing into end grain which won't hold so well).

Back to the OP's intended project, he mentions door frames but not doors. Internal frames or linings would be more easily done with a decent chop-saw, not a router.

Edited By Steve Pavey on 07/03/2015 19:00:43

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

While we are on this sort of subject, why THREE hinges? My Victorian house has two hinges per door and the doors are really heavy. So two hinges are OK for 124 years with a 60 KG+ door.

Any one considered the likelyhood of getting the weight distributed equally between two hinges (distance between the two hinges on both sides +- 1 micron?, then comparing that with three hinges. the centre hinge is just to stop cheap doors bowing.

Frank

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Its often a fire requirement to have three hinges as it helps keep the door in place against the stops longer. Plus modern doors are not made from such nice straight grained wood and with central heating a third hinge also helps to keep them straight.

As Steve says sliding compound mitre saw with trenching facility is a good way to do the joints in the lining

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi Frank, Your victorian doors probably have victorian cast hinges on them, which are a typically victorian piece of engineering, modern hinges are sh*te.

I watched the TREND video, I wonder how much the purpose made jig costs!, even though the video was heavily time edited, it didn't look any faster, although it probably does wonders for TRENDS profit margin. I mean, Why use a few simple hand tools when you can do the same job with hundreds of pounds worth of equipment.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm sure it took longer than 1:39. Would be interesting to see if someone with a hammer and chisel could do it faster.

Neil

[john jennings 1Participant @johnjennings1]

There are a number of issues here some are being glossed over in discussion of fairly minor issues.

Of course a router can be used in the construction of a door however:

Hinge and lock fitting , will need jigs as described :expensive (bought) time (homemade)

Shaping with a bearing guided ogee bit and large (preferably transparent) base plate will very quickly shape the panel openings on the almost completed door. The mitred strips to retain the paneling material can be made withe the same kit .

Withe use of specialist bit sets (and router table) you can do much of the carcase jointing of the door. More unavoidable expense here.

Now what other machinery might you need? When I made a ten light internal door a few years ago I used an Elu band saw for all cutting to length and mitring A table saw would be a less safe alternative – I like a full set of fingers! and a biscuit jointer.

All the timber was standard PAR and was about 10% of a big lot bought for a job that was much less critical, wider strips were made gluing side by side and only needed minimal sanding.

Making ONE door may be a lot of trouble and expense but I found rewarding having no large tool purchases.

Finally doors are big and even in pine quite heavy so you will need a biggish working space (two trestles outside when nearing completion was ideal) and possible lifting assistance.

Making a proper door from scratch is surely on any woodworkers bucketlist

Happy Chippering

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I did not think anyone was making doors just making and fitting new linings and then hanging bought in dors to the frames.

Hinge recesses can be done with the router without any jigs, do it all teh time for one offs eg less than half a dozen hinges

Why would a table saw be more dangerous than a a bandsaw?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Neil, I will happily dispatch any person who takes a hammer to a wood chisel unless it has a steel striking end fitted by design.

Jason, yes it is the same ELU model.

Cardbaord packing, that's the trouble these days, no pride in proper workmanship

Edited By KWIL on 08/03/2015 16:14:07

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

'Mallet and chisel' just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

KWIL you want to get some chisels like my 40mm one, you can hit them with whatever you like luckily all my japanese ones are hooped, same as my German ones.

The big mortice gauge was made for when I do a bit of green oak framing and the points are spaved to suit the chisel. I'm affraid I also use an auger bit in an SDS+ 4kg hammer as I can't be faffing about with a brace and bit.

Edited By JasonB on 08/03/2015 16:22:28

Edited By JasonB on 08/03/2015 16:23:42

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Wallace please look at your messages

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

Its great to see the modern woodworker with his/her mobile workshop equipped with power tools. As an apprentice (many years ago) I worked on a building site where there were gangs of tradesmen assigned to certain jobs, roofs, joists, doors etc., At 19 I was in a group fitting and hanging doors,. There were about six of us, each working on our own in separate houses. The average door count to fit and hang was 10 a day. Locks and stops were followed to complete. "Penny" joints were required on all doors but I think we cheated by using a 1 1/2" oval nail to set the gap, usually enough for 3 coats of paint. The door bottom was measured and cut to a line scribed using the thickness of a folding rule run along the floor. This would be enough to just clear most standard carpet I would think that carpenters today, with all the power tools and jigs would finish a house in half the time. I wonder how much bonus they earn, I got an extra 10 shillings a week for completing two houses.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Well said Phil.

It's easy to get too fixated on machinery and forget the simple hand methods.

Martin

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Here in France, you buy a door frame with the door and lock already fitted – just need the door furniture to finish it. The hinges are the screw in type where you can adjust the fit as the frame / house moves and when you want to, the door just lifts off the hinge pins. It beats me why we still use flap hinges in the UK. To be fair, French doors are rebated as opposed to UK flush, but a rebated door with additional rebates in the frame or stops gives a double seal and gets rid of that unsightly gap around the door.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Our house (1937) has riser hinges on most doors.

Most have needed attention because of the extra weight of 1970s hardboard on both sides of the doors

Neil

[john jennings 1Participant @johnjennings1]

Two gentle riposts

In his second posting Wallace the originator of this thread wrote

Basically, I need to fit new doors and frames – so it's locks, hinges and probably tenon joints or biscuits for the frame transoms.

Unfortunately, they're not standard sizes so it's going to have to be diy or lodsa money (My italics/bold) nuff said ?

Why is a bandsaw safer than a table saw

Well my door had all the bits large and small "machined" using the bandsaw cutting into length/ width/ mitering which meant working pretty near the blade and needing a good view and being very naughty removing the guard.

My experience is that it is very difficult to cut your self with a band saw , the only time I have got near was cross cutting rather large logs with a coarse blade which caught them and spun out of control!

Ten digits John

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Re Bandsaws/table saws.

1. Bandsaws don't kick back. Table saws can. This is when the blade picks up the back of the cut and lifts the work. the piece of timber can then pick up on the blade and get ejected towards the operator. Really only a problem when ripping.

2. You cannot see the teeth on a circular saw. They tend to have deeper spaces between teeth and all you see it the solid center. The cutting edge is somewhat in front of this and the unwary stand there puzzling why his fingers are disappearing while he cannot see whats causing it.

This applies to the sizes of saws usually found in the home workshop. Bandsaws for mill work obviously get a lot bigger than that and you cannot see the teeth on them either. All saws are hazardous and you should not be getting body parts anywhere near the cutting edges in the first place.

regards Martin

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Have you seen THIS?

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/03/2015 21:53:24:

Have you seen THIS?

Neil

Ideal for the US market where they tend to run their saws without riving knives or crown gaurds far more and unprotected Dado sets

Its been around for a while but you don't see many fitted over here. What is nice is the large off button, I have something in the same position on my tablesaw which is ideally placed to stop the saw with a nudge of your knee, you soon develope an instinct to where it is.

Edited By JasonB on 11/03/2015 07:37:34

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Rule 1 always have a riving knfe

Rule 2 always keep your hands, fingers away from the cutting area, use a push stick or other guiding method

Rule 3 if you use your hands, always beyond the cutting line just as you always keep your hands behind the knife or chisel (you dont? Why not?) Watch you cannot slip or fall onto the cutting line.

I have a large radial table saw (12" dia TCT blades), one hand pulls the saw/motor carriage along the track with a thumb holding the safety switch, the other stays well way from the cutting line.

Have I ever cut myself, yes but like John I still have all the fingers in good working order. By the way you can never have a tool that is too sharp, sharp tools work better and with less effort, less effort means more control.

'Nuff said. been woodworking seriously for nearly 60 years so must have learnt something about skills and staying alive.

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