Winter Storage Of Locomotives

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

As we are well into Autumn my thoughts turn towards the winter storage of the two steam loco's I own. I am hoping that the collective wisdom of those on this forum should provide good advice to both novices as well as those like me with a few years of running under their belts.

One of the loco's has cast iron cylinders which I replaced with new steel pistons and clupet rings a few years ago after binning the original steel and graphite yarn pistons. Since owning the loco and laying it up for winter I have always pumped steam oil into the cylinders via the slide valves. Luckily the chap who made it provided screwed blanking plugs giving direct access into the slide valve chest. I then put half a cocktail stick into the drain cocks to stop the oil leaking out! Crude but it works for me. The question is, is what I'm doing the best practice considering I suspect that the majority of loco's have this cast iron cylinder/steel piston setup?

The second loco I own has gun metal cylinders with stainless steel pistons and silicone 'o' rings. Apart from ensuring that I get all (or as much as I can get) of the water out of the cylinders by keeping the drain cocks open and pushing it backwards and forwards I do not attempt to pump anything into the cylinders. After the pushing backwards and forwards I close the cylinder drain cocks until the start of the next years running season. Again is this the best practice?

Incidentally, when I replaced the piston/graphite yarn setup in the first loco there was quite noticeable pitting in the bottom of both cylinders probably caused by water lying there over successive winters despite me pumping lots of steam oil in after each time the loco ran. I had to do a lot of honing to reduce the pitting to an acceptable level.

I look forward to learning what others may do, and of course this would be transferrable to anything which is steam cylinder driven not just loco's.

Chuffer

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hi Chuffer

Oil is lighter than water and will therefore, 'sit' on top of water. Any water left in the cylinders will sit on the bottom with steam oil on top. Dont know how to deal with that, other than remove all cylinder covers and wipe cylinders dry with absorbent paper and oil them. What a pain! Otherwise, steam up monthly?

John

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Drain cocks open and heat up cylinders with hot air gun? A small squirt of WD 40 and then add o
Lidll sometimes sell a variable temperature hot air gun. Commom use is paint stripping.

Robert.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

After a run I was taught to pump oil down the blast nozzle, close the regulator, open the drains, and put the engine in reverse and push it forward. Then put in forward and push backwards. Continue until oil is coming out the cylinder drains. The suction of the cylinders pulls the oil through the steam chest into the cylinders. I use lathe oil. I do it at the track when I can roll it on the steaming bays. My engines have slide valves on top, and piston valves, and cast iron cylinders and pistons with rings. Engines with slide valves on their sides or underneath, where the valves can fall off their seats, are probably not suited to this method.
The other thing you can do is push the engine back and forth every few days if it is on a stand with rails.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Be careful using that suction technique not to draw any particles of ash down with the oil.

Running the engine gently on low-pressure air may be one solution where the valves drop away from the port faces; assuming a normal pump lubricator. Use ordinary lubricating oil rather than steam-oil for that.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Assuming you already finish the year with a hot blow down would not running on air for a while get rid of any leftover water?

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Surely running on worship compressor air would introduce more moisture?

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

It seems that whatever you do you can’t win, I am in the throes of pulling my old Polly 2 apart, she is one of the very early ones and just about worn out, removing the pistons revealed severe pitting at the bottom of the bores despite oil being injected in to the cylinders after each run and pushed up and down to disperse it. Loco is stored with drain cocks open and oil dribbles out through them but for some reason water does not. In future I may give it a run on air every few weeks using the air supply for the spray gun, I don’t get problems with water when spraying so maybe the air is dry enough for a quick run of the loco.

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

There has been some interesting and thought provoking replies to my posting. It seems to me that for a loco with cast iron cylinders, steel pistons and cast iron rings the general consensus is to get as much if not all water out of the cylinders, get loads of oil in and then move the loco back and forth fairly often over winter to stop rust taking hold.

Luckily only one of my 5" gauge locos has the above configuration, the other has gun metal cylinders and my Gauge 1 locos both have bronze or brass cylinders. As I will occasionally run Gauge 1 during the winter months, subject to the weather, this also helps overcome any problems of seizure due to lack of use!

The whole subject of cast iron cylinders, steel pistons and cast iron rings rust seizing up due to lack of use got me thinking why gun metal cylinders are not used as often as cast iron. I know that gun metal is expensive (eye watering in some cases) but the additional cost spread over the total cost of buying the material, boiler etc etc and the time taken to produce the loco seems to me to be potentially good investment. At least it would do away with the problem of rust seized pistons, or am I missing something fundamental here?

Chuffer

[Nick HughesParticipant @nickhughes97026]

Just a thought, maybe flushing the cylinders through via the bastpipe, with this might help

**LINK**

I've not tried this, but the wipes that they do, work well.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

To develop Dave Halford's suggestion, you could put a canister of silica gel in the airline, or you can actually get bottles of dry compressed air, although this could be expensive. On my 2 locos with cast iron cylinders I've just put a lot of oil through after running, they haven't run for some years now (too heavy to manhandle, or I'm getting decrepit) but they still turn over.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by bernard towers on 03/10/2023 18:26:24:

Surely running on worship compressor air would introduce more moisture?

Not if one only delivers dry air for that duty. Air-line dryers are readily available, as are air line lubricators.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Chuffer posted "………. why gun metal cylinders are not used as often as cast iron."
IMHO there are a few factors why GM castings are not used more but cost is not the main one. Confronted with a set of 3 expensive GM cylinder (unmachined) castings & liners from a private seller's abandoned project, the cylinders were duly machined. But then arose the vexing question of what material to use for the piston and valve rings with GM liners. Differential expansion prevents harder metal for liners.
Published opinions are numerous and often contradictory. In the end I opted for graphite-impregnated PTFE rings Making them & their necessary jigs was a major undertaking. Much later, low pressure steam was finally admitted to the cylinders. Water droplets, then steam was emerging from many surfaces of the GM cylinder blocks. Porosity in GM castings I later discovered was not uncommon. Dismantling and and then getting them sealed professionally was a huge cost. When the wailing & gnashing of teeth had subsided, I purchased a set of CI castings & Meehanite for liners. Clupet rings were ordered and eventually all seems good.
I put screwed plugs in both end caps of each cylinder and squirt in WD40. The wheels are rotated occasionally.
Clearly many locos with GM cylinders + whatever material for rings, having been running for some years. But the advantages of Meehanite liners in CI blocks wins it for me.

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

Posted by Nick Hughes on 03/10/2023 22:52:48:

Just a thought, maybe flushing the cylinders through via the bastpipe, with this might help

**LINK**

I've not tried this, but the wipes that they do, work well.

Hmm, that's a potentially interesting solution to the problem. However, having absolutely no idea about the compatibility of steam oil with this product is there a tribology expert out there who could give some advice on this subject?

Chuffer

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 04/10/2023 11:08:56:

Chuffer posted "………. why gun metal cylinders are not used as often as cast iron."
IMHO there are a few factors why GM castings are not used more but cost is not the main one. Confronted with a set of 3 expensive GM cylinder (unmachined) castings & liners from a private seller's abandoned project, the cylinders were duly machined. But then arose the vexing question of what material to use for the piston and valve rings with GM liners. Differential expansion prevents harder metal for liners.
Published opinions are numerous and often contradictory. In the end I opted for graphite-impregnated PTFE rings Making them & their necessary jigs was a major undertaking. Much later, low pressure steam was finally admitted to the cylinders. Water droplets, then steam was emerging from many surfaces of the GM cylinder blocks. Porosity in GM castings I later discovered was not uncommon. Dismantling and and then getting them sealed professionally was a huge cost. When the wailing & gnashing of teeth had subsided, I purchased a set of CI castings & Meehanite for liners. Clupet rings were ordered and eventually all seems good.
I put screwed plugs in both end caps of each cylinder and squirt in WD40. The wheels are rotated occasionally.
Clearly many locos with GM cylinders + whatever material for rings, having been running for some years. But the advantages of Meehanite liners in CI blocks wins it for me.

Many thanks Fowlers Fury for sharing the details of your experience. I was unaware that GM castings had potential porosity problems. Fortunately, the GM cylinders on my second loco don't seem to have this problem. I didn't build it but as the loco has a history of being started in the late 1980's, finally being finished in 2012 would GM castings in those days be better quality or were you just plain unlucky? What process took place to seal the porosity in the GM cylinders and did it last?

I like the idea of screwed plugs in both ends of the cylinders but some purists would soon throw their hands up if they were not hidden behind covers on a scale model. As mentioned earlier there are screwed plugs in the slide valve chest cover on my first loco which make getting oil into the cylinders easy. The slide valves are on top so any oil pumped into there will work its way into the main cylinders.

I'm finding this discussion most enlightening. What started out as an enquiry into rust seizure prevention over winter has developed into a very interesting discussion on the merits, or otherwise, of the material for cylinders and pistons etc. And that's without going into the subject of built up ones being silver soldered or welded!!

Chuffer

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

google air line dryers easy and cheap to make. made mine out of "junk" i already had.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I think you will find that leaving drain cocks open invites rust – drain and leave closed. also don't forget to drain the water pump to protect against freezing.

I do place a 12 volt bulb in the firebox and a frost stat set at +5 degrees as the workshop often goes sub zero.

Bob

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by bernard towers on 03/10/2023 18:26:24:

Surely running on worship compressor air would introduce more moisture?

I do indeed have filters on my compressor for that, only £20 or £10 for the decorative ones that sort of work..

I wondered about steel boiler water treatment for the last steam up, but have no idea what that would do to copper boilers

Edited By Dave Halford on 04/10/2023 16:29:46

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Dave Halford on 04/10/2023 16:23:55:

Posted by bernard towers on 03/10/2023 18:26:24:

Surely running on worship compressor air would introduce more moisture?

I do indeed have filters on my compressor for that, only £20 or £10 for the decorative ones that sort of work..

I wondered about steel boiler water treatment for the last steam up, but have no idea what that would do to copper boilers

Edited By Dave Halford on 04/10/2023 16:29:46

Speedy

I found leaving the fuel tank cap off on the lawnmower over winter stopped the tank sweating and therefore rusting. Not the same as a small bore pipe though.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Chuffer:

For locomotive cylinders, depending on what was visible on the full-size, you may be able to disguise the oiling-plugs in the covers as dummy (even working??) relief-valves.

Perhaps easier on narrow-gauge styles. On his 7-1/4" g version of the Kerr-Stuart 'Wren', Ken Swan specified replicas of the displacement-lubricators on the valve-chest covers, as cold oil feeders.

.

Dave:

I think there are water-treatment compounds for copper boilers, to minimise scale; though that intended for steel probably won't hurt. It can give problems with fittings, by clogging small pipes, passages and injectors though, if used a bit too enthusiastically.

I'm a bit confused by your question about water-treatment. I assume you mean only in the boiler, but I doubt it would do any good in the cylinders. For one thing it normally stays in the boiler, for another it would need a lot of water (heavy priming) to put enough in the cylinders to coat the iron – defeating the object and not exactly good for the engine.

''''''''

A friend used to keep his 7-1/4" g., NG loco, a Hunslet I think, in a wooden garden shed. He used an ordinary garage inspection-lamp with low-wattage bulb in the firebox, and draped an old blanket over the whole loco. It not only worked for the engine. A mouse made himself a very cosy little nest on the footplate!

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Attn: "Chuffer"
You asked 2 questions in response to my posting:-.
"….. finally being finished in 2012 would GM castings in those days be better quality or were you just plain unlucky? What process took place to seal the porosity in the GM cylinders and did it last? "

One of them made me realise I'd been unclear yet again.

I don't know if GM castings were worse in terms of porosity in past years. Those very porous castings I purchased must have dated from the late 1970s. I don't know from where the original purchaser acquired them, but from his location I suspect they were "from a M.E. supplier" in the north. I had no original receipt so returning them wasn't an option.. Of course many hours of machining had been completed when the porosity was first identified, so no-cost, GM replacements weren't my priority !
As to your question about the process & cost to seal the leaky castings ~ apologies, I wasn't clear.
I made a call to a specialist company to ask the cost for sealing the 3 cylinder blocks. Their reply effectively eliminated any prospect of going that route ! It was then I purchased the CI castings & Meehanite and started all over again.
The industrial process for sealing (using a methacrylate resin) didn't commend itself to me for use in a steam loco. The maximum operating temp for castings so sealed was quoted at 200 C. One company provides a reasonable description of the process involved (See their 'FAQS' tab on the website) :-
**LINK**

No doubt someone can provide more information about the longevity of the sealing or perhaps of different industrial sealing methods.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

when I worked in high vacuum field, all ally forgings were sealed by putting them in an evacuated chamber and letting them outgas for a bit, then a bucket of resin, was posted in through an airlock and the forgings immersed, then let the air in slowly, fish them out and let it harden. I doubt the resin would stand steam temperature. This is all a long time ago, so might be not quite right

I've had just as much trouble with iron castings as with gunmetal with porosity. I put a thin sleeve made from cored bronze in my latest, although I doubt they would have leaked like Furious Fowler's, just a bit of porosity at one end of the bore spoiling the finish

[ChufferParticipant @chuffer]

I’ve just received an email from Model Engineer relating to the issues associated with the new Forum. When the announcement came about migrating to a new server I decided at that time to wait quite a while before accessing it again as I know these days despite the best laid plans things never seem to materialise that way!

Receiving the email prompted me to have a look at the new, and hopefully improved, forum and also to update what I finally did following the last run I had with my loco with cast iron cylinders.

After blowing down the boiler (and deciding to make new blowdown valves over the winter as the current ones have started to leak continuously this year) I pushed the loco backwards and forwards along the track in the steaming bay until there was no sign of any water coming out the draincocks. The screwed plugs in the slide valve covers were left in situ initially and then removed – couldn’t see that this made any difference. I then squirted copious amounts of 1000 grade steam oil into both valve chests and again pushed the loco backwards and forwards to distribute the oil, replace the screwed plugs and put half a cocktail stick in the ends of the draincock tubes to prevent the oil dribbling out over the coming months.

When I got home I left the loco on my lifting table (every workshop should have one to stop damage to backs lifting awkward heavy locos) and repeated the exercise of pushing the loco backwards and forwards along the short length of rails on the table adding more oil. I’ve found the half cocktail stick in the draincock tubes treatment does work for me. Doubtless some purists would say, and I probably agree, that if made correctly they shouldn’t leak. Mine don’t leak steam but without the cocktail stick I have found over a long period even 100 grade steam oil can leak.

Well that just about wraps up what I have done to winterise my loco.

Now to make those new boiler blowdown valves to a drawing given to me by a fellow club member.

Chuffer

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