Windows 10 – A Warning

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

These OS discussions always raise a lot of smoke even from people who use the same OS and in Linux's case just a different distro – there are several companies who maintain them.

I've been slanged off by Mint users before. I know why I use Foxit he knows why he uses something else. Even something as simple as reading pdf's is debatable. I for instance prefer djvu because if they are big I can always search through them – that's why I prefer them others may feel differently.

The problem with OS discussions is that they often raise so much smoke it is hard to even spot facts if and it's a big if there are any facts mentioned.

I'm off somewhere. When back I might list the facts that cause me to run Linux. On the other hand I might not. These don't mean that everybody should run it just why I run it.

John

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[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

RussB

Thankyou for your kind comments (knickers, twist, ambulance). I really appreciated them (not). Frankly, resorting to such language does not enhance your contribution one iota.

Just for the record, I have used most Windows versions from 3.0 to XP, and before that CP/M, MP/M & DOS. I found XP certainly to be the best with W2000 close behind, indeed I suspect it was the user that caused most problems with W2K.

Having said that, over the years I have become aware, with some dismay, of Microsoft's business practices: the attempts to prevent other people from inter-working with Windows, the bullying tactics employed over Lindows/Linspire amongst other things, the fines issued for their anticompetitive practices.

It has to be said though, that Microsoft does have cause for concern over the software copying that happened in the early days of Windows & their other software so I can well understand their view.

However, there is one thing that I absolutely do despise Microsoft for. And that is the fact that certain upgrades of the software has resulted in otherwise fully working equipment becoming non-operational and having to be scrapped. I accept that this is really down to the builder/provider of the equipment providing/not providing updated drivers, but my argument is that if Microsoft had not changed their software, then the equipment would have continued working. I'm no “greenie”, but even I can see that we, as a race, simply cannot continue squandering our planets resources like this: we have to start reusing & repairing more than we do at present, and when an otherwise fully functioning piece of equipment stops working because some software has been changed, then there is something drastically wrong. Hence, when Microsoft removed support for XP (OK, I understand the reasons why) and I realised that for me this was going to be expensive in both hardware and software, I decided to move to Linux.

With Linux, I did have a few problems with certain “must have” programs, but gradually most of these have been overcome. I can honestly say that I have not once regretted making the move. And best of all, it cost me nowt – and that gladdens my Yorkshire heart.

Peter G. Shaw

[Russ BParticipant @russb]

Peter, it was a prod at you of course, but sorry if the knicker twisting offend deeply – we obviously have a different view on the use of the English language, we'll save that for another irate thread.

I agree with everything you've said, but I support windows and highlight the pitfalls. I also support linux, and also, highlight the pitfalls. I don't believe it's black and white, and neither one of the 2 are perfect – although one is deeply immoral and the other is just struggling due to a near total lack of funding. I spend about 6 hours every day on a windows machine and 10 or so a week on Linux.

What would be really great, is if someone started charging money for Linux, and employing people to maintain and support users – but sadly, to many people want Linux because it's free, and not because it stands for something bigger.

I look forward to softwares being platform free, many are these days and it's the future in my opinion, but if the fat cats can't get their hands on your information or cash that way, I fear they'll just have you over a barrel another way.

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

The point of the original post was to flag that some people may be unwittingly incurring upto £15 a month broadband charge because of the bandwidth that Windows 10 requires to maintain its programme of updates.

Thanks to those that have offered advice on how to slim down the data requests that Windows 10 makes.

Seems ironic, but this has caused me to review in detail what Sky are charging for and some of those things will be getting switched off.

Steve

[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Thank you Steve for the warning.

In a similar vein, If I understand correctly when the electricity companies shortly roll out the use of smart meters ( on the pretext of saving money / the planet) these meters will be permanently connected to the internet, rather than just intermitantly uploading meter readings. Now, why I wonder would the electricity companies do that? who will pay the internet charges? this is also worth a thought regarding privacy security especially now with the appearance of smart appliances.

P.S. You can refuse to have a smart meter installed. As we will do.

Kind regards

Anna

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Anna 1,

Your post interested me – where I live, we already have 'smart' meters – no choice. I own some land, with a small house at one end which is unoccupied and somewhat decrepit. As I intend to demolish it when time permits, I asked the local electricity company (a monopoly) to disconnect it. After a lot of argument they finally disconnected it, as I later found out, 'internally'. That meant they disconnected the cables from the meter on the user side. I also got a certificate stating what the reading was at the time of disconnection. Now it is about one year later, and the meter reading (with nothing connected) is 6 kwH higher. It is possible to see that the cables are physically disconnected.

A complaint to the company resulted in a demand to pay for the power used, with a threat of disconnection if I didn't!. Guess what my reply was. I still don't know why this happened – maybe a 'feature' of smart meters? You are right to be cautious.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

The meters may be connected to the internet, but that would be via the electric cables, and then to the internet. The e/l co could not demand that you had a telephone line to allow connection of metered electricity. I suspect that if you refuse a smart meter, the cost of e/l will be the same. I also suspect that when some clever crooks hack the electricity data server, they could detect a home that wasn't using electricity and therefore occupant(s) not at home. Now there is a thought.
BobH

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Russ. A common misconception in some places is that people use Linux because they can't afford anything else. It was very common on a forum that I often spend a lot of time on and very very far from the truth.

Many people do not realise that a some of the work on Linux is done by paid commercial people who are paid just to do that. Lots that aren't too. Most of the disto's are commercial companies and mainly sell support. Some have a type of pay for Linux that includes support. As I started when PC World sold it that was my initial introduction to it. I still have the books that came with that version and they are still of use at times. Way better than anything Windows supply but very heavy going in places. On windows people would need to get lost in the knowledge base and probably fail to find what they want.

Wine is an emulator. I have a few free small windows oldies that can do useful things. I often find that these will run under it. I also have one heavier application that can't be replaced by a Linux app. It's for optical design and can do all sorts of things. To get that to run I had to install some windows dll's from a windows machine. Trouble is I have no idea which one did it and will have to do it again at some point. Most of the work done on wine is aimed at producing duplicate dll's and things of a similar nature. They have a bit of a problem doing it as many can be used in various ways so the tend to concentrate on running windows games rather than applications. There are all sort of facilities in wine but little info on using them. There is also various ways of using it. I mostly use q4wine but may change. I don't use swine any more. I could also use wine directly. It depends on what happens when i try to install something.

I started running Linux because i have been using Microsoft products in PC's from more or less day one and was not impressed to extent of wondering why IBM chose them. Later I found that they thought it would emulate CP/M but didn't. It was also very apparent that they couldn't or didn't write re enterant code which is pretty disgusting really and held back PC's for a long time. This area sets the scene as it was some years later when I changed.

I became fed up of updates slowing the machine down and even more so when updates were applied to previous releases. Fed up of home versions that had some rather odd crippling features. I did do some windows 3.1 coding and really was unimpressed and from that aspect wasn't much impressed with later versions. Some of this is down to their compilers and I suspect is actually part of their business model.

I was also fed up of them knocking better applications out of the market by playing with the OS making it even more difficult for the competition to compete.

I used MS products for long long hours at work at times and a number of changes caused me some difficulties. They even managed to stick a C compiler out that didn't stick to the standard. A minor irritation but there are others. Earlier, much earlier there idea of Fortran 4 was found to be some sort of joke.

I don't really want any of the above at home so seeing Linux and a list of what came with it on 6 CD's I decided to give it a go. I had done a bit of research on which distro to use and PC W were selling the right one.

Initially i dual booted and later used Linux via a VM so both could be running on the desktop at the same time. I mostly used Linux for the web. Then I started looking at what apps were available for it. Then I switched completely.

The machine doesn't slow down after updates. Unusual but it may speed up. In recent times it does ideally need a more powerful machine than it did but so what as I update my machine from time to time. Less often than under windows so less hassle. Some people do complain about the increased load on the machine.

If I update Linux completely it takes well under an hour for the install and probably another twenty mins to install a few packages that don't come on the dvd. I always use the dvd because it allows me to install a lot such as the development applications, kernel sources and a number of other things in one go. I do this so that I can compile from source. Quick and easy to do and actually often hardly ever needed.

At times an application doesn't do exactly what I would like. I have contacted the developer at times and they have done work as a result. I am capable of estimating how much work is likely to be needed though so don't ask for the earth.

On a few occasions I have found bugs. They have been fixed or I have been given help in getting round them. One on a pdf editor turned out to be me.

When I have had problems with more complicated aspects the distro forum has always told me how to fix or do what ever it is.

A few years ago I went into much heavier photo editing. Must have photoshop. It did take a while to find suitable applications to replace it but they are out there. I've found this much the same with everything I might want to do apart from one – updating certain pieces of kit's firmware. Cameras and things like that so having something around that will do that can be handy. My wife did use windows – a must for a teacher but she now uses a mac and finds it a lot easier. What's a mac. It's based on OSX which is Linux ripped off by IBM. Has to be said though that apple updates on my ipad are getting annoying as is the shop etc and various nags. No nags on Linux – just frowns on the distro forum because I should have updated by now.

John

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[Anna 1Participant @anna1]

Hi speedy builder.

Spot on. Thats how I read the situation, and I can think of even more worrying scenarios. The population as a whole and the youngsters in particular don't seem to see the dangers, but thats just me.

Kind regards

Anna

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Ady1 on 29/03/2016 10:58:48:

Windows has a handy feature if your computer starts to behave differently called "system restore"

(start/ all programs/ accessories/ system tools)

You can "go back" to a previous configuration and it's great for when any weirdness suddenly appears

Mostly what that does is to restore an earlier version of the registry which generally reverses any system changes done in the meantime (including installations). (It could be done in Windows versions back to the year dot – it was just a manual process earlier which MS automated).

What it won't do, in many if not most cases, is undo any malware that has been introduced. There's nothing that beats a good system backup but so few people do that.

I notice that someone said that Linux has a system restore too. I don't know if that is any better than the MS version.

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Hi, Bandersnatch,

Linux fallback is similar to the Windows version. (at least Mint and Ubuntu). I suppose better is a relative word. I tend to keep separate backups of important stuff, and in worst case (as someone else said here) a complete new install of Linux is very fast, less than 20 minutes on my home machines). As someone noted, it doesn't help if you have a virus infection – fortunately (so far) rare in Linux.

Ajohnw:

A good summary of Linux. I had much the same experience as you, but after the abuse floating around I couldn't be bothered to reply to the individual in question.

In my case, like you, it was poor experience with Windows, so I originally began playing with the very early versions of Linux (paid for) such as Redhat and Suse. This happened because at that time I was working on a 3d Geo mapping system for use with point to multipoint radio systems (later developed into the backhaul systems for mobile phones). This software was based on a commercial product, which had been written in Unix. Using this software led to an interest in Linux development, and so on. I think the move into free distros and the Open system years ago was one of the best things to happen to software for general use. It certainly helps people who would not otherwise be able to afford overpriced software get into computing.

For the record, my first experience of 'programming' was in early 1964, on an Elliott 803 serial machine (core stores, 18 bit 'words' – the lot. The language used was what nowadays would be called machine code, and a (slightly) higher level level language called Autocode (input on 5-hole paper tape. Been programming as an engineer on and off ever since, on all sorts of mainframes and PC-type kit.

Sorry about going off-thread – just reminiscing.

SpeedyBuilder: – your input makes me wonder now what is happening with my 'disconnected meter – hope they can't alter readings online, because as you say, if the connection is via the power lines, my next step is to take an axe to them, while wearing rubber boots!

 

 

Edited By An Other on 29/03/2016 19:50:51

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Mine was on a teletype on a timeshare system. I was really glad when they bought me a paper tape unit. This was basically design problems that were best solved this way. Later they let me use the company main frame. Mostly Fortran and punched cards with lots of lovely ladies about to actually punch the cards. Later a dec system with 5 users one on the end of a leased line. Commercial stuff that I found boring once I had the input routines sorted out. Then on to what would best be described as firmware with some electronics as well. Far more time doing that than the other stuff.

PC's at home – I've actually joined dial up bulletin boards when there was no net. Net – as soon as it was available in B'ham. It was great then until America woke up,

John

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[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Hi Ajohnw,

This takes me back – been there, done that, got the t-shirt, as they say. At one point (1970-ish) I had to set up a Honeywell computer which had originally been designed to fit inside a tank for aiming the gun – we modified it so it could be used to control a fully steerable parabolic antenna to track satellites. It used a paper tape reader to load tracking data that fed the tape so quickly that it came out as confetti. Great fun if we forgot to make a backup tape. No integrated circuits in those days either – all the logic circuits were built up using transistors operating in non-saturated mode, so they would switch quickly enough. This meant they ran very hot, so the cooling unit for the computer was bigger than the computer. I never did find out how they got it all into a tank.

Just to put it all in perspective – some years later I used a homebuilt Sinclair ZX81 with modifications to do the same job. Them were the days!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

First rule for forum moderators – never allow discussion of sex, politics or religion.

I am beginning to wonder if Linux comes under the heading of religion.

Neil

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Windows 10 – A Warning from history!

Hmmm. Might be politics… not religion

I stopped visiting computer programming sites years ago because of the level of dogma and fervent belief, cage fighting computer geeks are not a pretty sight

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by An Other on 29/03/2016 19:49:16:

For the record, my first experience of 'programming' was in early 1964, on an Elliott 803 serial machine (core stores, 18 bit 'words' – the lot. The language used was what nowadays would be called machine code, and a (slightly) higher level level language called Autocode (input on 5-hole paper tape. Been programming as an engineer on and off ever since, on all sorts of mainframes and PC-type kit.

Pretty much the same experience here, around the same time (63/64) …. programming in Autocode for a Pegasus (Ferranti if memory serves).

Then the University got a deal on a test installation of the latest and greatest (and perhaps first for all I know) ICT machine. They only had to knock three lecture rooms into one to house it!

If you're still interested (or for nostalgia sake) there is a Pegasus simulator here

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/03/2016 21:03:05:

First rule for forum moderators – never allow discussion of sex, politics or religion.

I am beginning to wonder if Linux comes under the heading of religion.

Neil

We have switched from talking about Linux Neil. I have a pretty sensible rule about such subjects – I know what I want to use and to be honest might suggest that some one else does something similar but it's up to them.

same with "model engineering"

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Ady1 on 29/03/2016 21:23:59:

Windows 10 – A Warning from history!

Hmmm. Might be politics… not religion

I stopped visiting computer programming sites years ago because of the level of dogma and fervent belief, cage fighting computer geeks are not a pretty sight

**********************************************

I can well understand that. It goes something like thou shalt design thy code according to the god zodd or some one else who lives on another planet else thy code will never work and there will be no way to maintain it.

When ever I have to work in assembler lots of things like that make me laugh 'cause that can have structure and can be maintained for long periods – if it's written sensibly and yes it will have go to's and other devilish structures in it.

Best not get me going on so called object orientated programming. I will add one thing on that Microsoft came up with an excellent example of what that really means. Of late it's been turned into a productivity tool as usually happens with just about any compiler eventually ………………

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 29/03/2016 22:48:54

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

and yes it will have go to's and other devilish structures

Ooooh… the dreaded goto heresy would bring the mods down like a ton of bricks and some places would even delete your post

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

For the record, my first experience of 'programming' was in early 1964, on an Elliott 803 serial machine (core stores, 18 bit 'words' – the lot. The language used was what nowadays would be called machine code, and a (slightly) higher level level language called Autocode (input on 5-hole paper tape. Been programming as an engineer on and off ever since, on all sorts of mainframes and PC-type kit.

Sorry about going off-thread – just reminiscing.

Same experience here. First programmed an Elliot 803 in 1964/5 at what was to become Surrey University. We had luxury, an Algol compiler, but still used Teletypes to punch and read the paper tapes. A year or two later I spent the summer vac programming an 803 at Mullard Research Labs using the assembler (SAP?).

A bit later at Southampton U. we had the luxury of a £3M ICL computer and could use punched cards and even hard disk drives. My smartphone today has a much more powerful processor and much more memory!

Russell

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by An Other on 29/03/2016 20:40:11:No integrated circuits in those days either – all the logic circuits were built up using transistors operating in non-saturated mode, so they would switch quickly enough.

Not quite true. TTL circuits became available in the mid 1960s. In fact I designed a floating point arithmetic unit for a Honeywell computer as my MSc project in 1968 using 74 series logic.

Russell.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

74 series TTL, I have an assortment of those tucked away in a box. Perhaps I should list them on ebay as vintage, probably be able to retire on precedes?

Mark

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

"Ooooh… the dreaded goto heresy would bring the mods down like a ton of bricks and some places would even delete your post" –Ady1

You know, for people who are supposed to be computer programmers, they sound like a pretty medieval bunch.

Michael W

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Most of the advances in software in this general area are aimed at eradicating the mistakes that programmers "typically" make Michael and also in an odd sort of way make it more readable which has a knock on effect on maintaining it – "improving ir" – using it elsewhere etc.

Other changes are aimed at sensible structure and minimising the amount of code via abstraction and of late object orientated design which isn't really what it used to be now, probably because it's a case of being able to recognise suitable objects which can be a rather difficult thing to do.

Yet more changes are aimed at deskilling the task. People are often told that they must do something in a particular way and do. Doesn't stop them from producing unreadable code though or making mistakes.

John

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[MM57Participant @mm57]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 30/03/2016 10:17:29:

A bit later at Southampton U. we had the luxury of a £3M ICL computer and could use punched cards and even hard disk drives…

I usually avoid adding to posts where people talk about what they did 40-50 years ago….but I used that (ICL 2902 IIRC?) in 1979 for my final year project …about 1000 punched cards if I remember, and no, I don't think I ever dropped them all at once

Edited By MM57 on 30/03/2016 14:06:19

Edited By MM57 on 30/03/2016 14:06:33

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