Willis Farmers Engine in 2″ scale

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Hi Gentlemen, been a while since I’ve posted on this forum. Thought you might like to follow my new build; the Willis farmers engine in 2″ very suitable for beginners. I’ll probably do a write-up as well, but YouTubing it will hopefully inspire more youngsters, and its a new challenge!

https://youtu.be/DIxcjqkznio

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I thought this might have ruffled a few feathers and got a bit more of a response, maybe Luker is right and people here are not interested in making things let alone trying something new. 😈

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I, for one, enjoy Lukers posts and watch many of his videos.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Out since early and not in long enough to have watched the video (yet) – is there something contentious about it Jason?

..or just disappointed that it didn’t get any response at all..?

EDIT – aha, it features ‘Mild Heresy’ – ..looks interesting..

[grubscrewParticipant @grubscrew]

I look forward to watching this.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although I am all for new methods, I’m also a realist. As I have said in the comments on the video I am not sure if all beginners could build it for $200. Maybe it’s clickbait to get people watching or maybe things are cheaper where LukeR is, I know I can build engines without castings for a lot less than a similar casting set but I also know what the raw materials cost at least here in the UK so interested to see how it pans out.

Then there is the boiler question. I know mainland Europe uses stainless but currently here in the UK most newcomers will be reluctant to pay for the nondesructive testing of their welds (hammered over bent joint won’t count) and then the ongoing testing costs which would have to be done by an independent boiler inspector as currently no club inspector will sign off stainless and I don’t see that changing for some time. Also unlikely to be able to get the boiler materials for £200 let alone the rest.

And yes I had watched it before it was posted here and encouraged him to post it here.

[LukerParticipant @luker]

It’ll probably cost me less than $200. The boiler is done and all the laser has been cut and I’m sitting at R1600. If a builder follows my methods exactly then they will probably be able to build this model for around that. To give some comparative costs, my 71/4 Stirling cost around R9000, my Wahya R11000 (but that was a ridiculous build just the wood alone added to that considerably as well as all the small laser cut components), the Ballaarat was less than R4500. I never kept track of the Fire Queen or my other unpublished builds. All my castings are from scrap, and I make all my steam fittings including injectors and pressure gauges. I don’t include my time because play-time is not billable! Scratch building makes this hobby very affordable!

I think most of the ME readers/forum members know my view on bureaucracy in this hobby. I honestly think that if the builders in the UK want to try out new techniques and not just read about other builders from across the pond innovating, you should take back your hobby!

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Wow stainless and laser cutting must be a lot cheaper where you are than here. I just ran a few more pieces through the online pricing of the laser cutters I normally use. 3mm 316L Mill Finish. Based on what proportion thing look based on a 100mm dia boiler mainly rectangular plate so some of the curved cutting and extra holes may add a bit more

Cost

37.00   Barrel 250 x 300

20.00   Front tubeplate 94dia & 13 holes

26.00   Throatplate 114 x 175 1 lg hole

20.00   Wrapper 75 x 300 No Holes

18.00   Firebox top and sides 60 x 250 No Holes

40.00   Firebox front and back No Holes

25.00   Backhead material

19.00 Foundation 1 rect cutout

22.00   Girders 2off no holes

10.00   Allowance for postage

237.00

47.00   VAT

284.00 GBP Total Laser cut 3mm 316

75.00   13No 10mm tubes @250lg in postage

359.00 Total not including firehole, dome material or consumables.

£359.00 is $468 USD so say $500 for just the boiler materials.

 

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Crazy pricing in the UK! I can build a few boilers for that! BTW can’t use 316, needs to be 316l…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That really is so much cheaper. Even if I were to just buy a sheet of 3mm and cut it all myself I would be close to $300 with the tubes. That was 316L as were the tubes, I’ll edit previous.

I see you also have some 4.5mm and 6mm and several parts larger than I assumed so that is going to make by laser price at least $600.

You had best go into the business of supplying boiler kits, even with international postage you could make a profit🤑

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I fail to understand why model-engineering in the UK – or its insurers – are so terrified of using stainless-steel for boilers.

Yes, it needs be the correct grade and welded correctly to the appropriate standard so would probably have to be work for the commercial boiler-makers… but “we” are doing that now with mild-steel boilers, and stainless-steel is used industrially for much more critical pressure-vessels than ours.

So that covers the PER side and the PER do not dictate designs and materials or who shall build them, but in effect states only that the plant shall be designed and built properly by people who provably know what they are doing so, in the law’s own words, it “is, in fact, safe”.

 

Similarly with Silicon-bronze, which would seem eminently useable by home as well as commercial boiler-makers; though I understand this does come in different flavours, some unsuitable, so you’d need use the correct one. (Its basic 98% Cu, 2% Si alloy, according to the metals catalogue I learnt this from, can be fabricated and jointed as if just copper but is considerably stronger.)

.

Whether that price on the video ad would be realistic in the UK, is another matter; but even if the materials could be bought for not much more, we should consider the “beginner” also needs spend a lot of the hard-earned on equipment before the project materials.

Many experienced model-engineers, let alone novices, would not consider making injectors and pressure-gauges even if making all the other small fittings. (The railway companies were a bit more self-sufficient but many of the “full-size” engine and plant builders bought items like boiler and pipe fittings from specialist manufacturers, too.)

As far as I can determine, very few amateurs go as far as their own foundry-work either. Rather, they fabricate or carve from solid, and where appropriate, finish those parts to resemble castings; or might send patterns to a professional foundry. Nothing wrong with either approach, of course.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

I fail to understand why model-engineering in the UK – or its insurers – are so terrified of using stainless-steel for boilers.

I think it is the insurance cost that puts people off. As club testing is based on voluntary boiler inspectors that have experience with the materials that are currently included in the club scheme eg copper and steel there will be nobody who has enough experience with Stainless. So as I said early on the owner of a stainless boiler will be faced with the ongoing yearly cost of having to PAY a proffesional inspector and take out their own insurance.

This ongoing cost will quickly exceed the cost saving over using copper so although it may seem cheaper to start with in the not so long term it will cost more. So there is little driving force behind people wanting to use something that will cost them more. Even more costly if they have to get the welding done by someone else.

Stainless is not such a good choice as it becomes more costly as the boilers get larger so steel is the better choice for say 6″ and over boiler diameter. Where stainless is an advantage is on smaller boilers where you don’t need to make the allowances for wastage (corrosion) it means you can keep material thicknesses a lot less so get a good grate size and reasonable water space. For example Luker is using 3mm material for most of his stainless boiler if that were plain steel boiler plate you would more likely be looking at 6mm thickness to allow for half of it corroding away.

So in summary the copper loco boys won’t want to change as it will cost them more in insurance and testing than a club membership. The larger steel boiler Traction Engine guys are often already paying for their own inspectors & testing anyway and as stainless would cost more than steel again won’t have much incentive to change.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

I fail to understand why model-engineering in the UK – or its insurers – are so terrified of using stainless-steel for boilers.

Perhaps it’s because the inspection procedures, standards, materials and techniques haven’t been updated as technology improved. Concentrating on soldered copper boilers constructed to proven designs made a lot of sense when that was the only way most people, including industry, had of producing such things. But that’s no longer the case when design, calculations, analysis, welding(especially TIG), non-destructive testing and inspection, plus sophisticated materials and machining are all readily available to a man in a shed.

Insurance companies are probably even less keen on changing the status quo than model engineers, as the market isn’t really big enough for them to spend much time and money updating what they will cover.

[LukerParticipant @luker]

Hi Gentlemen, next instalment…

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