Why is it so quiet here?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Sorry for attempting to take a Moderator’s comment seriously.

MichaelG.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

‘Latest Posts’ issue resolved. Good job.

Speed… it is difficult to excuse. It is really bad. I come here less often as a result.

A good outcome for me is that I have found other forums – like practical machinist.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

If the software for the old site was too out of date to adequately maintain, then why is the new more efficient software such a disaster? Apart from a few things like posting photos, the old site was efficient fast and virtually bug free. The new forum is none of these things. If it isn’t broke don’t fix it comes to mind.

Andrew.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Unfortunately the old site had two major issues as far as Mortons are concerned. Firstly, Mark Hawkins who wrote the software back around 2006, has moved on long ago so while it still works there is nobody left who understands the code.

Following on from that, the old forums were integrated into the MyTimeMedia software platform, also written by Mark and cannot be cleanly extracted from it as they were never intended to be. So keeping the old forums would have meant bringing all the rest of the MTM website platform with it which is what Mortons did for a while but understandably they want the ME and MB websites to conform to their corporate house style so the only option was to employ specialist software developers to:

1. Analyse the MTM databases to identify the basic data to be extracted (not an easy job at all)

2. Construct a forum addition to the Mortons ME & MB websites and populate it with the extracted data.

And that’s where it all started to go wrong as Mortons wanted to use bbPress as an extension to their WordPress based software platform but bbPress data strucrures were not a good match for the databases extracted from MTM which is at the root of most of the problems we have been experiencing. The developers employed seem to have got out of their depth and Mortons in house IT have had to pick up the pieces.

With hindsight I think it would have been better to have simply used a cheap or free specialist forum database package which  could have been simply ‘hung’ off the Mortons WordPress platform as a link and operated semi independently as other Mortons titles do not feature forums. It would stilll have been possible for Mortons to include whatever level of advertising they felt appropriate but the specialist forum software would have coped better with the quantity of data held on the ME forum and which is probably the root cause of the slow response times we are currently experiencing on the ME site. The Model Boats site is much faster as there is a lot less data.

The perceived ‘clunkiness’ of the present arrangements reflects the unsuitability of the basic bbPress forum facilities to support and process the amount of data in the ME forum but I have to admire the efforts of Darren Hendley and Andy Hill in wrestling with the problems and improving things. I’m no expert on WordPress/bbPress but I understand that there are plugin options which could accommodate the data processing capacity needed by the volume of ME forum data.

Hopefully the situation can be largely resolved soon to provide an acceptable level of Forum performance.

Colin Bishop (Model Boats Moderator)

[DrDaveParticipant @drdave]

To go back to the OP’s original point, I had not noticed that all had gone quiet until I saw this thread… I have been largely ignoring the new-look website for reasons that several others have already mentioned, but I had not noticed the absence of emails telling me that someone had posted on any of the forums that I follow.

I logged in to check, and the list of forums that I had built up, requesting an email if somebody posts, has been deleted.  After recently posting on the Aircraft Discussion forum, I clicked on the Notify me button.  I was surprised to find, a few days later that there have been 3 replies: but no emails.  I have just checked and, yes the Notify me box is still ticked, but is not working for me.

Does anyone else have the problem?

Dave

[Colin Bishop]

On Colin Bishop Said:

Unfortunately the old site had two major issues as far as Mortons are concerned. Firstly, Mark Hawkins who wrote the software back around 2006, has moved on long ago so while it still works there is nobody left who understands the code.

Following on from that, the old forums were integrated into the MyTimeMedia software platform, also written by Mark and cannot be cleanly extracted from it as they were never intended to be. So keeping the old forums would have meant bringing all the rest of the MTM website platform with it which is what Mortons did for a while but understandably they want the ME and MB websites to conform to their corporate house style so the only option was to employ specialist software developers to:

1. Analyse the MTM databases to identify the basic data to be extracted (not an easy job at all)

2. Construct a forum addition to the Mortons ME & MB websites and populate it with the extracted data.

And that’s where it all started to go wrong as Mortons wanted to use bbPress as an extension to their WordPress based software platform but bbPress data strucrures were not a good match for the databases extracted from MTM which is at the root of most of the problems we have been experiencing.

 

[…]

The perceived ‘clunkiness’ of the present arrangements reflects the unsuitability of the basic bbPress forum facilities to support and process the amount of data in the ME forum but I have to admire the efforts of Darren Hendley and Andy Hill in wrestling with the problems and improving things. I’m no expert on WordPress/bbPress but I understand that there are plugin options which could accommodate the data processing capacity needed by the volume of ME forum data.

Hopefully the situation can be largely resolved soon to provide an acceptable level of Forum performance.

Colin Bishop (Model Boats Moderator)

I note this : https://deliciousbrains.com/tour-wordpress-database/

purely as a matter of empathy.

It is way beyond my level of comprehension, or personal interest, but I think it will give the innocent reader some sense of what a mammoth task it must be to migrate a large database [of under-documented origins] into a new structure.

MichaelG.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On Colin Bishop Said:

Unfortunately the old site had two major issues …

 

The perceived ‘clunkiness’ of the present arrangements reflects the unsuitability of the basic bbPress forum facilities to support and process the amount of data in the ME forum but I have to admire the efforts of Darren Hendley and Andy Hill in wrestling with the problems and improving things. I’m no expert on WordPress/bbPress but I understand that there are plugin options which could accommodate the data processing capacity needed by the volume of ME forum data.

…

I note this : https://deliciousbrains.com/tour-wordpress-database/

purely as a matter of empathy.

It is way beyond my level of comprehension, or personal interest, but I think it will give the innocent reader some sense of what a mammoth task it must be to migrate a large database [of under-documented origins] into a new structure.

MichaelG.

Complicated indeed Michael, and built on by bbPress as described here.

Two things jump out at me:

• The posts table contains much more than member posts and is likely to very busy!  It’s also used as an extensible container for Pages, CSS, Attachments (Images, PDF etc), Revisions, Menus, and Changesets (version control).   Member posts, of which there are about 640,000 have only two post-types, Draft and Publish.   But the actual number of ‘posts’ will be considerably larger because plugins use the table to store other data. I wouldn’t expect menus, CSS, scripts, and change data to increase the table massively, but attachments are common.  A post with 5 photos in it is at least 6 posts in the database.
• By default the post table is indexed by:
  • ID Number
  • Post Name
  • Post Author
  • Post Parent
  • and the combination: post_type, post_status, post_date, ID

Looks like the server gets no help from an index when displaying member posts in reverse order, and it also has to check post_type to select ‘Publish’.   The code probably also does more post table searching to get CSS and anything else needed to do assemble the web page.

If not already done, I’d try the magic SQL incantation:  CREATE INDEX idx_postdate ON wp_posts( post_date );

Where this stuff gets tricky is that wp_posts also contains a column called post_date_gmt.   Could be a better choice – computers often  use GMT rather than local date-time because it’s international and doesn’t jump about with daylight saving.  All guesswork – I don’t have access to the forums innards!

Dave

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

There are a number of frustrating decisions here:

for years, the answer to any complaints about the forum was “it’s old, it’s custom, it’s weird, and it can’t be upgraded. This will all change when we (eventually) go to a new system”. Except the ‘new system’ is another example of using poorly chosen tools to cram a pint into a litre container.

the new appearance and layout looks like it was rushed through before leaving early on a Friday afternoon after a long lunch in the pub. There’s wasted space, colour combinations that are difficult on the eye, repetition of buttons, useful menu items hidden, etc etc. All this without the familiarity of years of use.

the same applies to the usability and functionality – there’s little actual improvement, and certain aspects are much worse. It’s so *&?~ing slow!

so the old weird, custom format made porting everything to the new one very difficult. But why was that necessary, and what was wrong with starting anew using the original membership? That would have made management of the changeover much easier, by allowing plenty of testing before launching the new site and then freezing the old one.

 

[DrDave]

On DrDave Said:

To go back to the OP’s original point, I had not noticed that all had gone quiet until I saw this thread… I have been largely ignoring the new-look website for reasons that several others have already mentioned, but I had not noticed the absence of emails telling me that someone had posted on any of the forums that I follow.

 

Dave

I will explain a little as to why I started this thread (to which I never expected to get so many replies)

Since the new software was launched I have subscribed to five (5) threads (maybe called topics now). On the old forum probably I was probably subscribed to 50 or more but many of the oldest are just dormant as their threads are rarely added to.

Recently subscribed to are,

Comments (constructive) on the new forum software
Mystery Chip
New Forum Problems
New Forum Questions not in Help/FAQ
This Website

From subscribing to just those threads I received about 400 notification emails between 20th October and 12th November. At first I opened each email, followed the link, then deleted it, but on days when I did not have access to my PC the emails just remained although I had read their contents on my phone. Then when faced with 34 or 60 unread emails on the PC I resorted to deleting all but the last few most recent and catching up with the threads on the website. Whilst on the forum website I did always check the latest postings but as far as I could see there were not that many new topics initiated (that were of interest to me).

On about the 12th November I noticed a sudden drop in the number of notifications (only 2 or 3 a day) and the frantic bustle almost stopped. Up to that point the forum had been pretty busy but mostly because posts were related to the same few threads and to which the moderators (and one or two non-moderators) made the most posts.

I read every posting and followed the progress,(mostly lack of) regarding the new forum software, whilst I made a few replies I soon realised that any comment or suggestion I would make had probably already been made by several other participants so there seemed little point in adding to the general noise as the developers were probably already overwhelmed.

I do have in my mind, I think, an explanation for the sudden change. One reason was the Dave (SoD) had other (non-forum) matters to attend to so was effectively off-line, I also think that some of the people that had been very active began to realise that their hard work and best efforts was going unheeded so justifiably thought ‘why bother’ or maybe just slowed down.

Quite apart from Morton’s getting themselves into a mess with this upgrade I think they have behaved badly in not explaining by coming to the forum themselves and updating the forum members and the website users. We have been mostly in the dark with only limited information from the moderators (who I gather were pretty much in the dark anyway). The latest reply from Colin (691834) does however explain clearly how the present situation arose, Thank you Colin.

Ian P

PS I have not received any notifications at all from threads I was subscribed to on the old forum. Probably those threads have not had any new replies (or the possibly my notifications have not been carried over)

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I never had a problem with the old forum, easy to use, loaded promptly and easy on the eye.  I would dip in and out several times a day, a few moments to read the “latest post” list then either read what interested me or move on.

My (limited) understanding for the need to change seem to be fully justified to ensure the forum is good for the future.

Unfortunately it hasn’t gone well, this is my list of issues that I would like to see addressed.

Time to load page, logged on or not, far too slow compared with other website I use.

When loading I get, just for a second or so, a text version of the page before the “real” page loads, poor programming?

I find the choice of colour combination less than easy on the eye, I need to take care adjusting the angle of the screen to make the page “viewable”.  Not needed to be so fussy elsewhere on the web.

The “latest replies” panel takes me to the first page of the thread, a nuisance.

I find it hard to believe the forum owners didn’t set up a trial forum using volunteers to hunt down the problems etc., before letting it loose on the rest of us.

The above sums up why I am not viewing the forum anywhere near as much as I previously did, I hope it improves soon, I really miss the old forum!

 

 

 

 

[John MC]

On John MC Said:

 

The “latest replies” panel takes me to the first page of the thread, a nuisance.

 

 

Not if you click on the date above the persons name.
I must admit that initially I didn’t like the change, but now I am used to it and the speed has vastly improve I now find few issues.
I have not found its appearance a problem. Maybe it looks different on different machines browsers?
It now works well on my Android phone as well, the original site needed a lot of scrolling and was virtually unusable.
Keith

 

 

[File Handle]

On File Handle Said:

On John MC Said:

 

The “latest replies” panel takes me to the first page of the thread, a nuisance.

 

 

Not if you click on the date above the persons name.
…………..
Keith

 

 

I wondered why the forum was suddenly working so quickly, and then realised it had forcibly logged me out.

I suspect this is the “Latest Replies Panel”, which does indeed take you to the start of the topic 

Whereas this is the list/table at the foot of the page, where you can access the actual latest reply directly

Edit, well that’s odd compared to how you managed to post a thumbnail on the right.
I certainly selected right Justify for the top screenshot

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’m sure you have mentioned this before, Bill … but for JohnMC’s benefit let’s be explicit:

LATEST REPLIES on a blue ‘button’ with rounded corners is an active hyperlink

Latest Replies on a blue rectangle with sharp corners is just the heading for a list

 

Yes, I know … “You couldn’t make it up“

MichaelG.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

I’m sure you have mentioned this before, Bill … but for JohnMC’s benefit let’s be explicit:

LATEST REPLIES on a blue ‘button’ with rounded corners is an active hyperlink

Latest Replies on a blue rectangle with sharp corners is just the heading for a list

 

Yes, I know … “You couldn’t make it up“

MichaelG.

Indeed, but it’s only a hyperlink to further down the same page; it doesn’t generate a new list.

Also, It looks like my last screenshot’s gone walkabout again in my previous post, but too late to edit it there.
It was to illustrate that I’d clicked right justify for the initial screenshot, but it hadn’t worked; the idea was to imply that the panel was off to the right on a PC monitor (and maybe a sweep right on a tablet??)

Bill

[peak4]

On peak4 Said:

[…] Indeed, but it’s only a hyperlink to further down the same page; it doesn’t generate a new list

You’re right, of course [which is why I usually refresh the page]  … so maybe the bigger question is why do we have [ignoring the one in the sidebar] two differently structured lists on that page … does it serve any useful purpose ?

… or is it just putting load on the database ?

MichaelG.

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

I’m sure you have mentioned this before, Bill … but for JohnMC’s benefit let’s be explicit:

LATEST REPLIES on a blue ‘button’ with rounded corners is an active hyperlink

Latest Replies on a blue rectangle with sharp corners is just the heading for a list

 

Yes, I know … “You couldn’t make it up“

MichaelG.

What is the point of the blue box (with sharp corners)?  For my benefit, remove one of the latest replies buttons, have one that just takes the user to the latest replies, please.

Without being facetious, the present state of this forum seems to suit those who are interested in and have some knowledge of web page design, gives them something to get their teeth in to.  For me forums are tools to share and learn information.  This forum is presently makes hard work of doing this.  In the past I have found the forum to be very useful, at the moment its just hard work.

Fingers crossed for the future!

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

I too used to dip in as a welcome distraction to the day job, monitoring more frequently than contributing and also benefiting from the combined knowledge of the members.

I have more or less ceased to do so, primarily because of the glacial-like response times which preclude my previous update, click onto new or half followed topics, contribute if warranted, roll back to day-job cycle.

The rest of the issues are less than ideal, bordering on user-hostile in places, but all capable of being lived with when balanced against the greater advantages of the forum itself.

For the time being, I am dipping in every couple of days when I have time to see if there are any improvements in the response times.

Simon

[John MC]

On John MC Said:

On Michael Gilligan Said:

I’m sure you have mentioned this before, Bill … but for JohnMC’s benefit let’s be explicit:

LATEST REPLIES on a blue ‘button’ with rounded corners is an active hyperlink

Latest Replies on a blue rectangle with sharp corners is just the heading for a list

 

Yes, I know … “You couldn’t make it up“

MichaelG.

What is the point of the blue box (with sharp corners)?  For my benefit, remove one of the latest replies buttons, have one that just takes the user to the latest replies, please.

…………………….

@johnmc39344, I did try and answer this a couple of posts below your original comment, and expanded a bit a couple of posts below that; my apologies if I wasn’t sufficiently clear in my explanation.

Please see this post on the main thread, where I’ve tried to provide a better breakdown of how everything seems to work.
As far as I can make out, there is only the one “Latest Replies” button displayed, which provides a shortcut to the list when you last instigated a page refresh.
Bill

[peak4]

On peak4 Said:

On John MC Said:

On Michael Gilligan Said:

I’m sure you have mentioned this before, Bill … but for JohnMC’s benefit let’s be explicit:

LATEST REPLIES on a blue ‘button’ with rounded corners is an active hyperlink

Latest Replies on a blue rectangle with sharp corners is just the heading for a list

 

Yes, I know … “You couldn’t make it up“

MichaelG.

What is the point of the blue box (with sharp corners)?  For my benefit, remove one of the latest replies buttons, have one that just takes the user to the latest replies, please.

…………………….

@johnmc39344, I did try and answer this a couple of posts below your original comment, and expanded a bit a couple of posts below that; my apologies if I wasn’t sufficiently clear in my explanation.

Please see this post on the main thread, where I’ve tried to provide a better breakdown of how everything seems to work.
As far as I can make out, there is only the one “Latest Replies” button displayed, which provides a shortcut to the list when you last instigated a page refresh.
Bill

Yes, only one latest replies button, the other is a list of latest posts, I have misunderstood that, sort of.  But what is the point?  For me, the accessibility of the forum posts with the old forum was perfect, this has not carried over to the new forum, unfortunately.  Previously this would have been the first of several visits to the forum over the coming day, not now, I may have a look this evening.

 

 

 

 

[John MC]

On John MC Said:

…  But what is the point?  …

There is really no hope any of us answering that question,  John

The site is being ‘developed’ by people who are not communicating their intentions to the user group.

The best we can do is try to describe what we are seeing, in the hope that they might suddenly realise what a monster they are creating.

Sorry, but that’s my honest summary.

MichaelG.

 

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

For my part I believe this is all we are going to get. Most companies these days operate on the, “leave it alone they will get used to it” scenario. In the belief that eventually people will “stop moaning” and “make do with what they have got”.

There is no doubt that there are people out there who could sort this mess, but that means more money, something I doubt was never there to start with.

If it had not been for the posts covering the state of this Forum, it would be even quieter. There is nothing so far to encourage me to post anything new.

 

Regards

Gray,

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Ifg you pick something off latest replies why does it not show latest reply, perhaps these words mean something different to what I have been used to

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Well the quietness here could be because several moderators said a week or two ago to wait a week or two then try the site again. I did this, and today the site shows no major improvement I can see. It still took almost a minute to log in and any forum post I open takes 40 seconds to two minutes to open. Worst performance of any site I use. Most other sites load pages almost immediately, a second or two max. Same for posts on other forums. Somebody doing this site’s relaunch needs to get their finger out or get shifted.

BTW where can I find the “ignore member” function that was present on the old site?

[Jeff Dayman]

On Jeff Dayman Said:

[…]

BTW where can I find the “ignore member” function that was present on the old site?

.

Given how few “members” are currently participating; that question came as a surprise , Jeff … Have I offended you already ?

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I’ve gotten out of the habit of coming here I’m afraid, which is a pity.

But I’m pleased to see that you still have a sense of humour Michael!  🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

 

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