Why is everything you buy such rubbish!!

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

I let my son read this thread and his comments were

 

‘the reason we’re in the state we’re in has little do
with losing jobs to lower cost economies. But much more to do with
losing jobs to higher cost economies. The main beneficiaries of the
demise of MG Rover were French and German manufacturers; many of of our
trains from Germany and Japan; our ferries and cruise liners tend to
come from France, Germany and Scandinavia; many of our domestic
appliances come from Germany; a lot of industrial equipment comes from
Germany, Italy and France; our aircraft tend to come from France and the
USA…. and that’s the frightening part – if we were losing industry to
lower cost economies, that would be understandable and avoidale. When
we’re losing them to higher cost economies it’s not understandable, but
it is avoidable!’

 

Jim

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

When I was last in the UK, 1984, I stayed with one of dads war time mates (they were radar mechanics RAF/ RNZAF), im Sheffield, I was in a large retail tool and machinery shop, and was talking to the shop assistant, he was bemoaning the fact that you wont find much here thats made in England. He’d been made redundant from Record tools.Ian S C 

[adyParticipant @ady]

The european higher cost economies have been heavily subsidised by their governments over the decades in various direct and indirect ways whenever there was a rocky patch.

So they survived to see the better times.

 

After 1980 our own governments simply let everything crash and burn and anything which DID survive was flogged off to overseas interests.

 

Sheffield forgemasters had their loan pulled by this administration and it would have given them the opportunity to be one of only two plants in the world which could make large castings for the nuclear industry, creating some seriously unique engineering skills for Britain.

 

Why we live in bye bye Britain

 

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Steve G, I’m not sure I entierly agree with you. When I was in maintenace with a previous employer, spares were always available even for machines for way back. However the cost of the spares plus my labour of fitting the spares to some smaller units made them more expensive than replacing with a new unit. The size of units I mean were about the size of a 1.2 litre car engine and smaller, but spares were still available. My first washing machine plus the spares cost me around the £450.00 mark, devide that by 23 years, thats about £20.00 a year, not bad value as I didn’t have to pay labour costs to fix it. I’ve yet to see how long my current one lasts of course.

 

Regards Nick.

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

As we live in a society where “out-sourcing” is much in favour, I propose that the govermnent of the UK should be out-sourced to Angela Merkles & Co. 

Peter Gain.

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Nicholas, that’s a lot of past tense. Yes it used to be true that you could get spares, and fortunately for a lot of car owners, when it comes to cars you still can – even though they have to be imported in from all over the world. To most other stuff it simply doesn’t apply any more. It’s always been true that you had to vector in the cost of a repair in staff terms, and the more wages rise, the more significant this is. It’s generally agreed around our way that if you can get the spares, most machines will stand the cost of one repair only before this becomes uneconomic, and that figure has gone down significantly; it used to be three.

 

But it’s when it’s a small essential part that this becomes really annoying. And weird stuff happens. Recently our local vet asked me to look at one of his very expensive German veterinary animal scales – dodgy LCD display on it. Took it to bits and discovered that it was a unique multiplexed display made specially for the manufacturer. Would they supply me with a spare part? Would they hell… So this is best part of £1000 of scale written off for one display component – and of course they made quite an attempt to sell me a new set of scales… But amazingly enough, in this instance the Chinese have triumphed! I wasn’t happy at all with what the Germans had said, so I characterised the load-cell bridge in the scale pan, and did some searching around. I then found a manufacturer of scale displays that would work with the existing scales, and the complete new unit with additional functions and gawd knows what else came in at about the same price that a replacement LCD would cost. It’s pretty well built as well. And the vet’s dead chuffed, and telling all his mates that when their identical scales pack up, not to bother with the original manufacturer, because I can fit something better!

 

So that is why I’m saying that things aren’t necessarily better or worse, but different. In general, spares are much harder to come by these days, just like cheap labour is, as well.

 

Jimmie’s son has sort-of got a point, but really we are losing manufacturing to countries with better protected manufacturing, and probably less greedy banks – hasn’t really got anything to do with the economic costs as such, except inasmuch as it’s clearly bank-related. British governments have never liked what they regard as the ‘dirtier’ aspects of what as a country we might be pretty good at, and accordingly have never looked after it. Indeed, that’s pretty much an article of faith with them, whatever flavour they are.

Edited By Steve Garnett on 09/11/2010 12:20:38

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Two points:

 

1.

Unless I’ve missed it, nobody has reminded us that when the Japanese first started selling over here, they were rubbish. But then they realised, cleaned up their act, and we now know the result.

 

2.

British governments have never liked what they regard as the ‘dirtier’ aspects of what as a country we might be pretty good at, and accordingly have never looked after it.

 

Maybe then, what we need are politicians who have served a stint in (heavy) industry rather than the career politicians we now have.

 

On a more general basis, someone has said that the manufacturer’s do not want us to repair, but as has been said, when the raw materials do eventually become prohibitavely expensive, then we may see a changing attitude. There is, though, another point – that of environmental efficiency which means that in an attempt to make equipment more efficient, then it is having to be electronically controlled which in turn means unrepairable specialist integrated circuits which in turn become obsolete and hence render the complete item unusable. Cars are an example, which is why maintaining a modern car properly is now beyond the reach of the average DIY home mechanic.

 

I also think that in this modern world of quick and cheap transport, it is inevitable that the work will go to those places with the lowest costs, ie wages. Only if these costs rise dramatically will it become economic again to manufacture in the same country as the items are used. In the short term, I feel it will be necessary to depress wages to such an extent that it becomes economic to retain the work here. But that, frankly, will cause one heck of a lot of possibly civil unrest.

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Posted by Terryd on 08/11/2010 22:40:44:

Lots of rose tinted specs around here methinks.

 

I have a modern car, just 8 years old.  It is Korean and has a lovely silky smooth V6 2.4 L engine, power steering, auto box, cruise control, climate control, ambient temp sensors, Leather seats, electric mirrors, windows and drivers seat adjustment, window mist sensors etc etc. it is also economical,  It has let me down only once but has no sign of even one spot of rust.  It starts first time every morning despite being left out in the cold etc.  It runs on the original battery and drives so beautifully, my dad could only dream of such a car.  But it was not expensive and will last for many years yet and I don’t need to lie under it every weekend.

I have a similar car 2.5L V6, do not have auto box, it is nearly 11 years old, everything else as good as Terryd’s and it is a Rover 75!!

[Robert Miller 1Participant @robertmiller1]

KWIL wrote:

[quote] I have a similar car 2.5L V6, do not have auto box, it is nearly 11 years old, everything else as good as Terryd’s and it is a Rover 75!![quote]

I guess Rover made some improvements.

 

Years ago I bought a new Rover 2000 TC.  According to the car mags, this was the apex of automotive engineering. Ha!  Despite the advertised factory undercoating, in one year there were rust perforations in both front fenders.  In the course of the next two years, the starter’s Bendix drive disassembled itself into the clutch housing, the fuel pump fell off, the clutch throwout bearing failed, and the differential started making strange noises.  My new bride, who has no comprehension of things mechanical, finally put the poor thing out of its misery by trying to climb an icy hill with it floored in first gear.  This was an expensive car and it went from new to the wreckers in only three years!

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I think that modern goods are generally much more reliable than those made earlier in the 20th century. Cars are a case in point – they go for 10000 miles between services, rarely breakdown, are more affordable and are in a different league to cars from the 60s or 70s. The price you pay is they need specialists to perform basic maintence.

 

Take machine tools – yes some of the cheap chinese machines are poorly finished but there are plenty of modern machine tools of extremely high quality (and will last a lifetime) – but they are expensive. Good quality tools have always been expensive – there have always been cheap tools so whats changed.

 

Don’t look back with rose tinted spectacles!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Yes indeed cars are more reliable but when parts fail, as any mechanical thing will sooner or later, the cost can be prohibitive. 

An example I heard of was a just out of warranty V8 Audi cam chain tensioner failing and a nearly £4000 quote to change it., and before you ask, no, there was no other damage .

Another was when the clutch failed on a CVT gearboxed Fiat, quotes approaching £2000 to fix it. The exact same thing happened to my Sister’s Nissan Micra, the local Dealer quoted £1600 odd for the repair, muggins here a new one for a few hundred plus as many coffees as I could drink. The list goes on and I am sure you all have your examples.

 

I ask,  how can it be environmentally sound for it to be cheaper to write off an otherwise sound car (the Fiat) for want of what would normally be considered a routine mechanical repair. Did I hear you say “that’s Progress for you”

 

Grumpy Old man of London, formally known as chriStephens

 

PS the Audi owner ended up paying, I seem to recall, a few hundred after much negotiation with the manufacturers.  

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

 

 

Edited By V8Eng on 09/11/2010 19:09:13

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

A friend here in France with a mark 1 type Renault in immaculate condition had a gearbox failure last year – it just stopped selecting gears.  A new one cost him 2000 euros, the car is only worth 1500 euros!

[Steve GarnettParticipant @stevegarnett62550]

Yes, it’s bizarre that – putting the components into the vehicle immediately devalues them!

[adyParticipant @ady]

A cylinder head for a mark 2 escort cost me a tenner from a scrapyard.

 

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I remember talking to some one at the vehicle maintainance garage at the local army base about 20 years ago, just after some one had nicked one of the armies V8 Landrovers, he said if they can keep it going they can have the bloody thing. There are rumours that it had the computor engine management system taken out, and it never gave any problems. It never was found, but I think some know about it.Ian S C

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by KWIL on 09/11/2010 14:12:15:

I have a similar car 2.5L V6, do not have auto box, it is nearly 11 years old, everything else as good as Terryd’s and it is a Rover 75!!

Hi Kwil,

 

They were (are) extremely good cars, and if I remember correctly they were built under the partnership with BMW with many German parts and design input.  This was after the very influential partnership with Honda had been dissolved when BMW took over.

 

By the way, I’m not certain of the figures but I am told that Britain makes more cars now than ever before because of the Japanese plants of Toyota, Nissan and Honda as well as the BMW Mini plant, and GM and Ford plus the luxury marques and specialist sports car makers.   However this may no longer be true since the Peugeot plant producing the 206 at Ryton closed and the uncertainty surrounding Land Rover and Jaguar.

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 10/11/2010 04:32:57

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Now, if you read the old newspapers of the time, you will see that all the strife that the Bristish motor industry got into with quality and so on was all the fault of the workers, at least according to the management of the times. But now the Japanese companies, with those same British workers are producing what are apparently very good cars, if not easy to fix yourself. (But that does not matter too much if they don’t break too often…)

 

Note that the only thing that really changed was the management, and of course the quality control systems, and I suspect the motivation of the workers. Some companies are good to work for, some are not. Workers don’t really strike becasue they want more money, they strike becasue they are “really annoyed” and the cause is not always what it appears to be.

 

If the only way you can compete is by trying to drive down the wages of your workers, you are doing it wrong. The Americans showed how it is done years back, they always had relatively expensive labour so they got into mass production.

 

regards

John

[adyParticipant @ady]

Management culture comes from the top, and since most managers are giant egos on legs most companies are pretty crap to work for and most people only work for them so they can eat, the economies of scale of larger corporate entities tend to mean better wages.

 

I worked for an amazing british company for a few years, you literally skipped to work in the morning.

It got taken over by an american outfit, same management except for the top and oh boy did that place tank as a place you wanted to willingly work at.

American management practices seem to be not dissimilar to americas religious origins in that they are totally obsessed with the complete control of the individual.

 

The Japanese have an egalitarian society, like the Norwegians, it’s like the John Lewis Partnership, the boss of the whole place can’t earn more than 10 times the wage of the lowest placed worker so managers who are greedy egotistical b*****ds stay well away and the company can focus on becoming a long term wealth creation powerhouse to the benefit of all concerned.

 

Edited By ady on 10/11/2010 08:59:45

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John Olsen

To an extent it was the workers.

I used to make pressed parts for Vauxhall.

One part was a sump plate cover.

A circle with a small semicircle at each side with a hole in it.

We kept getting complaints from Vauxhall that the plates were not flat and were leaking.

We planished the plates with a press tool, still they leaked.

The cause of the problem?

When you press something out, one side will have sharp edges, the other side will have rounded edges.

The workers were putting the rounded edge on the sealing face.

Oh dear, it leaks.

The problem was solved by stamping a cross on the radiused side and telling the workers to put the cross on the outside.

That says to me workers at fault.

regards David 

[adyParticipant @ady]

A lot of top managers are highly intelligent psychopaths/sociopaths whose main objective is to amass as much as possible for the self.

The wreckage they create along the way is irrelevant, they have no conscience.

George Bush is a good example(apart from the highly intelligent bit…family connections are more important than ability in his case)

The shareholder system has insufficient controls to prevent these people from rampaging throughout the upper echelons of companies.

 

Countries with an egalitarian culture have all done well for themselves, you can’t really get more dissimilar cultures than the Norwegians and the Japanese.

 

And as has already been mentioned, even British car workers have done extremely well once they have proper smart managers instead of smooth talking egos in charge of running the operation.

Edited By ady on 10/11/2010 09:32:42

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi David, John, Ady,

 

British workers in such industries as Assembly Plants were treated like unthinking morons who had to do as they were told, no wonder they put the sump plate cover on the wrong way up.  When the Japanese took over the plants, or built new ones they treated the workers as intelligent beings who worked in quality circles and given the responsibility to solve problems themselves. That in turn creates an excellent working environment in which workers thrive and improve production. 

 

You then add modern machinery and efficient systems and quality products are produced.  I worked in the British car industry in the worst days of the 60s and 70s and the Managers were self serving and greedy.  not all, but a significant number.  Many had also been promoted beyond their ability or did not understand the motor industry.  No wonder the workers fell under the spell of the Anarchists.

 

T

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Don’t blame all the managers, a lot of middle and senior managers really try their best.  It’s often the MD and directors who are to blame.

 

I worked for a company in the 1990’s.  Every month we had a managers meeting of all middle and senior managers, chaired by the MD and every month we all went in dread to those meetings because we knew someone was going to get a stuffing in front of everyone else, and whilst that someone was getting that stuffing we the rest all looked down, avoided all eye contact, and thought “there but for the grace of God go I”.   What a way to run a company.  You lived in fear of making a mistake.  You couldn’t be free to make positive decisions for the benefit of company and personnel in case you got it wrong.  You couldn’t criticise directors when they screwed up – they were directors after all and sat next to God didn’t you know.  The MD knew what he was doing all too well – he had a degree in psychology.  And if you were an engineer then you were the lowest of the low, a necessary evil that the production and packing departments would like to get rid of if only they could repair the machinery and make it work.  Not that failure there in any way affected their belief they knew all about everything mechanical and electrical better than you.  And never make a joke or have a laugh at anything, we don’t do laughter and enjoyment here.  What a way to earn a living, but all too common I fear.

 

I got made redundant in 1999.  A tremendous shock at the time – but quickly came to the belief that it was the best thing that could have happened to me.  As my wife said then, it gave us back a life.  Yet all the time I had worked there I, along with many others, had worked hard and long hours, well over the requirement, for the benefit of that company and the people for which we were responsible.

 

So, I sincerely believe that a company is only as good to work for and successful as a company as the quality, experience, humanism, sense of humour and sense of responsibility of the MD and his fellow directors and their application to the company and personnel.  If you get the wrong set up there, get out when you can – if you can.

 

Perhaps that is where we have gone wrong here in the UK. 

Edited By ChrisH on 10/11/2010 13:36:55

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

My Grandfather had an excellent saying which was:-

 

“You don’t get owt for nowt”.

 

This is something which seems to hold true in life generally.

[Dave Jones 1Participant @davejones1]

On the positive side, all of the ‘old well made’ tools are now available second hand at reasonable prices.  I managed to pick up a spotless eclipse micrometer full working order like new for £3 at a boot fair the other week!

 

Good quality tooling and equipment is still out there, but you have a look/pay for it.  For example, I believe the cheapest brand new Myford lathe will cost you just shy of £7000, for that price you could probably equip a full model engineering workshop with far eastern machinery.

 

Regards,

Dave

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