Why Column gear shift

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Hi Flowler

Well I did say switched on to market forces. and trends. Succesfully responding is a separate question. You are correct on steel supply, I understand that is why Landrovers ended up in aluminium.

regards Martin

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

W0My wife has an automatic but it only has a four speed box. A good improvement over the three speeders but I can still get better mpg by using the manual gear selector. For another, you can be in the best gear for overtaking. Having to wait for a gear change, when starting to overtake is neither good for acceleration nor for it changing gear whilst changing lanes.

Agreed, our 4 speed auto gearbox is now 'old hat', but I remember the first time I 'kicked down' in a 3 litre Capri. It was a surprise, having never driven an auto previously!

Those of us that used to make hand signals, whilst driving, are likely better equipped than the latest generation of drivers!

As for cruise control – good as long as the driver knows its limitations. Remember, if it is retarded bybsome unwelcome object, it will simply accelerate. I was once sent a pic of a big american SUV that had a lot of armco barrier through, and beyond, the vehicle! It didn't stop until it stalled out.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by richardandtracy on 29/11/2017 12:11:10:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/11/2017 12:33:24:

Better than a friends ghastly French car in the early 80s which had an umbrella handle sticking out the dash. Its position bore only a casual relationship to which gear you found yourself in.

Neil

Sounds like a 2CV with worn bushes on the linkage. The way to deal with that was to spend(!) up to £2 on new rubber bushes. I had a 2CV Dyane where the bushes got so worn they broke in two and fell off, leaving and only the central metal pin to operate the linkage. It went from 45 degrees between 1st and 4th to about 120 degrees when this happened.

I love my 2CV, but the gears are 'interesting'. My wife once had brain fade and tried to put the car in reverse when she wanted 4th. Amazingly enough we didn't get loose teeth in the gearbox.

Regards,

Richard.

Not a Citroen. I think it was a Renault.

Ugly thing

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I've heard a lot of good things about the continuously variable transmission on Toyotas.

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Coming in late as usual!

Column change was to allow three passengers in the front bench seats.

Bench seats predated column change. My father's 1947 Vauxhall, with floor mounted lever for the 3 speed box, had a bench seat.

Driving a car solo, with a bench seat meant that you had to hang on to the steering wheel going around right hand corners, to prevent you sliding across the car. In the Ford V8 Pilot, it was a long way across the big seat!

The Ford(son – strictly) van with the Consul engine, or Perkins 4.99 between the front seats, was a 3 speeder. As the linkage wore, it sometimes jammed. A kick under the drivers side floor usually returned life to normal until the next time.

Column changes caused problems on Morris Oxford, Series MO if the little pawl on the end of the die cast lever broke. To get into reverse, you had to move the lever with one hand, whilst pulling the rod up the steering column with the other.

I think that the Austin A90 H pattern was a mirror image of that used on the A70, and A50/A55; just to confuse things.

Renault 16TLs were 4 speed, whilst the 16TX was a 5 speed unit. (Possibly the only successful column change 5 speed?) The R16 was a reliable and durable system. The only problem that I heard was of someone who selected (as he thought) 3rd, but went the wrong side of the gate, at high speed, engaged 1st and let in the clutch with a bang. The next bang was the flywheel bolts shearing!

Renault 4 and Renault 6 cars had a dash mounted lever. In front of the engine, a ring surrounded a vertical gear lever sprouting out of the box, just like a floor mounted lever. Basic but quite effective and reliable.

This was not new, prewar BSA front wheel drive cars used the same arrangement.

Can't recall what the Citroen Light 15 and 22 (Traction Avants) used, but was probably something similar.

The Citroen DS had a column mounted lever which operated the hydraulic valves controlling the transmission. This could be used manually, or as an automatic.

The Standard Vanguard 2 litre engine WAS the original: (Also used in the Triumph 2000 "Razor Edge" saloon) It was derated, and modified for the Ferguson tractor, to run on petrol/paraffin, like most of the contemporary tractors, unless diesel powered.

Preselector boxes were often referred to as Wilson gearboxes after their inventor, but were made by Self Changing Gears of Coventry. The Douglas Tugmaster, powered by Rolls- Royce B80 or B81 petrol engine used a SCG preselector gearbox. This was an aircraft tug, tested to be capable of pulling a Locomtive, trucks and Brake van, with the brakes hard on, along the tracks, (but with a maximum speed of about 25mph on the open road).

Armstrong Siddeley, Riley, Daimler, Lanchester and Crossley cars used preselector gearboxes. You had to remember before changing down, not to have already preselected the lower gear, or you went down two, with a terrible lurch!

The London Transport RT did have a preselector gearbox, with a larger selector assembly on the column than the ones used on cars. (Some preselectors had the occasional unfortunate habit, for no obvious reason, except possibly wear; of the gear change pedal coming back much farther than normal and pinning the driver to the back of the seat). A hefty push with the left foot restored order and space in the cab.

The RouteMaster used an epicyclic box controlled by a system developed by C A V Ltd, to provide automatic transmission.

The gearboxes with the little short (about 2 inches long) lever were not preselector. They were, like the preselectors, epicyclic, but semi automatic. The little lever operated contacts which energised solenoid valves which fed compressed air to rams which operated the appropriate brake band(s) within the gearbox. These boxes would adjust the brake bands for wear automatically. If a solenoid valve stuck, you could end up with two gears engaged at the same time, locking the transmission.

Leyland used a similar system, (Pneumocyclic) but with the lever operating the air valves directly, on the PD3/5 bus chassis, with centrifugal clutch. (It was the normal dry plate clutch but controlled by five bob weights. At idle there was a characteristic clanging sound, as the bob weights rattled against the ring that limited their travel!)

On Southdown Motor Services, there was a raised pad on the floor, in place of the clutch pedal normally there on manual transmissions.

Howard

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

As Howard says, it wasn't just American and American-influenced cars that had column changes. My grandad had a Daimler with a Wilson pre-selector gearbox, which was the wierdist thing I ever drove (except, perhaps a Citroen DS21) and a pal's father had a Merc with a column change. The best I ever drove, in the middle 1960s, was a brilliant Peugeot which, well ahead of its time, had fuel injection. It really was fun to drive fast.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/11/2017 18:14:24:

I've heard a lot of good things about the continuously variable transmission on Toyotas.

Neil

I've heard it said that some drivers don't like CVT because the transmission tries to keep the revs constant so they feel that nothing happens when you put your foot down ( no audio feedback). I believe that some manufacturers have added artificial broom broom noises to address this issue.

Rod

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 29/11/2017 19:05:43:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/11/2017 18:14:24:

I've heard a lot of good things about the continuously variable transmission on Toyotas.

Neil

I've heard it said that some drivers don't like CVT because the transmission tries to keep the revs constant so they feel that nothing happens when you put your foot down ( no audio feedback). I believe that some manufacturers have added artificial broom broom noises to address this issue.

Rod

Long live the Daffodil.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Howard Lewis,

I remember the Halifax buses during the late 40's & 50's. These were AEC and had a preselector gearbox with a short selector lever. I can well remember the drivers, and bear in mind that routes around Halifax were hilly, in some instances very hilly, selecting the next lower gear, and then depressing the change pedal whereupon there was an almight jerk along with the poor old diesel engine struggling mightily to keep up – if you see what I mean. Mind you, when they actually got into top on the level, the engine produced a most satisfying roar as it accelerated.

Later, probably late 50's, Halifax got some new buses which were floor mounted and I think a normal gearbox.

Interestingly in the 1970's & 80's, Bradford had a lot of as you said, semi-automatic buses, ie a stubby little gear lever which changed the gears as soon as it was moved – no need of clutch. Unfortunately, the majority of Bradford's drivers either didn't care, or didn't know how to drive these buses smoothly. The general idea was to use what was called Driver 1st to start and once going, slam the lever straight into Driver 2nd without releasing the accelerator: result was a massive, and for me painful due to back problems, lurch. Occasionally we got a driver who knew how to drive and surprisingly, those drivers could drive those buses more smoothly than the later fully automatics.

I mentioned Driver 1st & Driver 2nd. These boxes were a 5 speed box with true 1st being in effect an emergency low and which required the driver to operate two levers simultaneously. I have been on a bus where the driver refused to use true 1st on a steep uphill with the inevitable result: the bus tried to set off, the engine couldn't cope, so it lost revs followed by the automatic clutch disengaging, followed by the engine picking up, the clutch engaging and so we travelled in a series of lurches. It's a tribute to the vehicle builders that the buses actually stood up to that sort of punishment.

But Yorkshire buses, in around the late 80's/early 90's got some fully automatic drive by wire buses. These were superb. All you could hear was the engine note rising and falling as the gears changed whilst acceleration remained extremely smooth. They would accererate smoothly up to about 50mph and then go dead, obviously some sort of limiter. I was quite jealous as my car could not compete for smoothness.

Peter G. Shaw

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Neil – thinking about it a bit more, there was a perfectly logically reason why the Renault 4 had a dash mounted 'umbrella' gear change lever – I suspect the Citroen 2CV had the same reason but not sure. The Reno 4 was front wheel drive but the engine and gearbox were not mounted transversely as is the norm these days but longitudinally, with the gearbox in front of the engine. The gear change shaft stood up vertically from the gearbox and so the route from the gear change shaft to umbrella handle was a straight line across from the dash over the top of the engine to the gearbox – simples. All the best ideas are that – simples! Chris

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

I remember driving a pal's Citroen Big 15 over some pretty rough roads in Africa in the early 1960s. The gear lever for the three-speed box sprouted out of the dashboard, and the hand brake was an umbrella handle just below the dashboard. The handling on gravel roads was far better than any British car of the period, and it had a big enough radiator so it wasn't constantly boiling on hot days. A pal bought the car from a bloke who threw in a beret and a couple of packs of Gauloises. I believe the Big 15 once held the Cape to Cairo record. Vive la traction avant!

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

à propos les voitures Français; their soft suspension may be explained by a comment attributed to a PSA executive:-
"When driving, if the French suffer a bad ride they will blame the car but the British will blame the road".

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

I thought the French never had a bad ride – or am I confusing this with something else!!

The first vehicle we had was a 1952 Austin A40 pick-up – really useful on a smallholding. Column change and bench seat really allowed us to seat 3 instead of 2.

Replaced by a Morris Oxford pick-up – bench seat but floor change. Meant a child like me had to hutch up a bit, or a lot really, particularly when selecting reverse! The A60 pick-up still retained column change at the time.

Additionally, I suppose column change allowed the driver to get in-out the other side more easily, should the need arise. I find this manoeuvre gets more difficult these days – as last week when a 4×4 parked very close to driver side! I could manage it quite well 50 years ago in my courting days. Suppose nobody remembers the term courting though?

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Perhaps them floor space was for sheep dogs etc to be carried?

[Roger Provins 2Participant @rogerprovins2]

Back in the early '60s I had several Fords with column change and 3 seater bench seat- Zodiac, Zephyr, Consul. Slid around on every bend!

 

Roger

Edited By Roger Provins 2 on 01/12/2017 11:39:55

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I thought column change and bench seats was an idea by the government to increase the birth rate after the war. A friend of mine , who had a zephyr with a heater and radio, used to hire it out. Had to be careful tho' because the valve radio with a power pack under the passenger seat used a lot of power and could flatten the battery.

[Steve PaveyParticipant @stevepavey65865]

The Renault 4 and 6 were the only cars I remember from my youth which had a dash mounted gear lever, but it seems that most modern vans have them now. No-ones mentioned overdrive – my dads Rover 100 had overdrive on 3rd and 4th. I think it was an option on MGBs as well. Two ther nice cars my dad owned were the Rover 3 litre and the Vanden Plas Princess R with a 4 litre RR engine – both automatics and I think they both had full width bench seats but I may be wrong about that. Both these two cars were smooth as silk to ride in.

[Alan Johnson 7Participant @alanjohnson7]

I have a 1975 Citroen 2cv, with 4 on the dash; a 1951 Woleslely 6/80 with 4 on the column; and likewise a 1951 Austin Sheerline, with 4 on the column, a 1949 Humber Super Snipe – the same; a 1928 Austin 7 Chumy – 4 on the floor; and a 1939 Austin 8 tourer – the same; and two Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire Stars (1953 & 1958) with pre-selector gearboxes; a 1954 Morris Minor and 1963 Morris Major Elite.

Comparing them all, and the pleasure of driving them I find that the pre-selector is the most pleasant, followed by the column shift cars. I reckon that the marketing of the motor car – and the appeal to the potential customer – given the price range of the vehicle, and thus the buyer had more to do with what the manfacturer chose to produce than any engineering considerations.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by V8Eng on 28/11/2017 17:15:53:

Moving upmarket.

Some Bentley cars used to have the gear stick on the right hand side of the drivers seat (my boss had one in 1973).

I think one particular Riley model featured that as well.

I can't speak for Rileys, but my brother's Triumph Roadster (about 1948 – the one with the dickey seat, as driven by Bergerac on the telly) had the gear lever on the right.

George

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Roger Provins 2 on 01/12/2017 11:39:33:

Back in the early '60s I had several Fords with column change and 3 seater bench seat- Zodiac, Zephyr, Consul. Slid around on every bend!

Roger

In the late seventies I had a 1966 Vauxhall Victor 101 estate with 'three up the tree' and a bench seat. My then girl friend used to call sharp bends COD corners – Come Over Darling!

George

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by not done it yet on 29/11/2017 16:53:38:

Having to wait for a gear change, when starting to overtake is neither good for acceleration nor for it changing gear whilst changing lanes.

You should try driving with a modern dual clutch automatic gearbox. The gearbox in my Skoda can change gear in 8 mS, much quicker than a manual change. It also has manual up/down shift but after playing with it a few times I just let the computers get on with it.

Russell

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Russell, I have a Honda Jazz with CVT, it is a dream to drive with gear changes as you say happening in milliseconds, and the fuel economy is phenomenal, driving round town it is in the upper 40's but no sluggard when it comes to accelerating. I would hate to revert to a full manual gearbox now, my Honda has paddles so you can still indulge in gear hanging if the mood takes you.

Dave W

[Dave Smith 14Participant @davesmith14]

I had a Nissan Altima in the US a couple of weeks ago. It was awful! Gutless, jerky gear changing, fuel economy was bad, I was quite disappointed with it. My father in law had a CVT Nissan micra about 10 years ago which was much nicer. Personal opinion, you still cannot beat a manual change for being in exactly the right gear when you need it or to hang on to a gear through a corner instead of unsettling the car midway through.

PS even though the Nissan in the states was gutless I still managed to out drag most things away from the lights without trying!

Dave

[Alexander Smith 1Participant @alexandersmith1]

Reading all these posts reminded me about our very first car – a mini van with rear seat conversion back in the late '70s. It had the very long, floor mounted gearstick and when we bought it (very, very second-hand) the seller told us that the ball joint where the bottom of the gearstick joined the gear linkage was worn so he had drilled a hole in the locating plate and added a bolt which located into a groove in the ball and kept everything located. Everything was fine for months until, one day when I went to change gear – no gear stick!!! Moment of panic until I looked down to see the gearstick lying flat on the mini floor. A quick bit of scrabbling around with one hand while driving with the other (yes, I know I was an idiot, but I was young in those days) and I managed to find the gearstick and it happily changed gear. That was fine until I let go when it promptly landed on the floor again. An interesting journey home ensued, where I tightened up the bolt and everything was fine for a few months until it happened again and needed another tighten. Given the panic these days when anything minor goes wrong with a car, it's amazing the bodges and quick fixes that we all seemed to have no issue with in the days when you could actually do things to a car. Now I just lift the bonnet, sigh heavily and put it down again.

Sandy

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

I remember dad telling me he took his driving test in the farm van. The passenger seat was not fixed down so it could be easily removed for more carrying capacity.

The emergency stop was interesting . . . surprisingly, he passed. Maybe the examiner didn't fancy a re-run

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