Why Column gear shift

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

I had a Standard Vanguard in 1963 and this had a right hand column change with a bench seat which allowed me to drive along with my left arm around my girlfriend.

John

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

My first car was a Wolseley 4/44 with column shift. The linkage was so worn that you were not certain which gear you'd get, especially when setting off. You pushed it up I think to try for first, but were just as likely to get reverse or third, and you didn't know which until you let the clutch out. Bit embarrassing at traffic lights. Once on the move it didn't matter as much as it would go almost anywhere in 3rd and top. When I got it the H section chassis rails under the doors were so rotten you had to keep the doors shut to jack it up. I made some Z section 18g bits and pop rivetted them on. Believe it or not it then passed the MOT.

It also had a ball joint accelerator linkage which fell apart when you went over a big bump. Nostalgia? No chance give me a modern car anyday.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Hmmm! – column changes – used four back in the 50s/60s, Hillman Minx, Ford Zephyr, Morris J2 and Renault 16. Hillman and Ford OK, Morris awful , Renault absolutely superb!!.; it was the only one which was as slick and accurate as a floor change and the only car that I never had any complaints with. Only bought it because the Austin Maxi I intended to buy was delayed on delivery (Ah! British Leyland!!)

The J2 was our staff transport in Bangkok and although the gearchange was crap, the weight distribution was such that 'drifting' the back end was easy and great fun

rgds

Bill

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

So when was the earliest appearance of a floor change?

We have been considering the 50's and 60's but ignoring external levers and very early cars what was the arrangement in the 20's and 30's. Were columb changes a hang over from then or were they a post war thing.

regards Martin

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

With a column shift, and a bench seat, you could get 3 int the front, or if you had a car like the Pontiac that a mate is doing up, or another friends Cadellac you could easily seat 4 across the front, a floor stick sort of gets in the way.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 28/11/2017 12:48:22

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

Not quite the same thing, but my first driving experiences were in a 1937 Riley Kestrel with a pre-selector box. The gear change, or to be more precise gear selection was a small lever on the right hand side of the steering wheel. This lever was quite small, I seem to remember no more than 3 – 4 inches in length and moved in an arc of around 4 – 6 inches. I always remember the precision with which one could select the gears using just two fingers to move the lever.

I believe that the London bus RT also were fitted with pre selector gearboxes but I seem to recall that the selector lever was shall we say a little more agricultural in it's size and operation.

Phil

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

My dad had a 1953/4 Standard Vanguard diesel (think it was a modified 2 litre tractor engine) with 3-speed column change. 0-60mph in about 5 minutes! If you pulled out the starting fuel boost when driving you got a small power surge and created a smoke screen.

He reckoned he got 40mpg which wasn't bad in those days for a big heavy car. It had red leather bench seats with pull-down armrests, and a valve radio. Unfortunately I was too young and innocent at the time to appreciate the potential benefits of those

The previous car was an Armstrong-Siddeley with pre-selector box, running boards, leather bench seats and a pull-down picnic tray in the back . . . happy memories

Oh yes, and 'suicide' doors

Edited By Farmboy on 28/11/2017 12:22:03

Edited By Farmboy on 28/11/2017 12:28:35

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Better than a friends ghastly French car in the early 80s which had an umbrella handle sticking out the dash. Its position bore only a casual relationship to which gear you found yourself in.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Philip Rowe on 28/11/2017 12:11:00:

I believe that the London bus RT also were fitted with pre selector gearboxes but I seem to recall that the selector lever was shall we say a little more agricultural in it's size and operation.

As a lad I was fascinated by the pre-selectors on buses which were a small box, maybe 3-4" square? With a very short lever (with round plastic knob) and a gate from aluminium sheet.

Neil

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

"So when was the earliest appearance of a floor change?"

Martin – If we ignore our 'septic' cousins, other than the up-market pre-selectors, almost everything pre WW2 would have a floor mounted gear lever (and a foot operated dip-switch! AND trafficators). Post WW2 we were trying to export and so 'design' migrated towards USA styling and their favoured column changes. Thr French had the Citroen Light 15 example to work from and made what was (for me) the ultimate in lustwothiness – the DS19/21 decapotable with electronic gear change, drool, drool. A navigator mate on S&R had one and driving home for the w/e had a blowout at 70 mph – he only discovered it when he got home!!

rgds

Bill

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

"Better than a friends ghastly French car in the early 80s which had an umbrella handle sticking out the dash" I disagree Neil.

I had a Reno 4 in the 1970's, with the 845cc engine and the gear lever – umbrella handle sticking out the dash – was spring loaded to the middle vertical of an elongated 'H' – (elongated meaning it had 3 verticals in the 'H', R-1 up/down on the left, 2-3 up/down in the middle and 4 up on the right!) which gave the 2nd and 3rd gears. The system worked so well, going up and down 1-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-etc the box was so logical and easy, made driving a pleasure. You just push/pulled as required and gave a little turn to the right for 4 and left for 1 or R and it was as quick to change as I can write it!

Mind you, the car did need half an hours notice of trying to overtake anything but it was a very fun car to run and drive.

Chris

Edited By ChrisH on 28/11/2017 14:08:29

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Aha CJ, now we are getting somewhere.

If, as you say, manufacturors migrated to column change from pre-existing floor stick it would probably have to be for reasons of a desireable selling point to make the added complexity bearable. Totally trashes my ideas that they were just not bothered about simplifying things. American influence wether by virtue of attempting to break into their market or holding our own against their imports seems likely to be a factor. Comments regarding the bench seat may also have a bearing on the subject .

regards Martin

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Probably no simple single answer. Ultimately many seemingly technical issues are down to the manufacturers best judgement of solving the price / performance / cost to make / buyer appeal conundrum. Ultimately buyer appeal wins out over purely technical considerations. Something frequently overlooked when using 20/20 hindsight is that whatever is designed had to be made using, mostly, existing factory equipment and components that can be bought in appropriate numbers.

When independent front suspension came along engines and gearboxes migrated forwards hence the long flex-wand gear levers needed to give direct connection to the gate on the box. So if you re going to have a remote linkage anyway putting it up on the steering column lets you sell three abreast on a bench seat. Car buyers are rarely logical or properly technologically aware so some things become accepted as the norm in certain eras and marching out of step can cost serious sales.

The superficially simple floor mounted remote gear change link is a classic devil in the detail engineering problem anyway. Bolt it direct to the gearbox and its position relative to the engine mounts can have it jumping around in a big way as the engine – gearbox assembly shifts on the flexi mounts. Bolt it to the floor with its own gate and a flexi in the link system can be just as problematical as a column system in old age. Cables give full isolation and can be either the answer or the problem. As BMC / Leyland found out. 1800 land crab cable links work fine, Maxi Mk1 version upsets the journalists and by osmosis all informed opinion agrees its hopeless. Not that I ever had problem. Hand flat on the top of the lever, roll slightly opposite the direction it needs to go and it will shift as fast and accurate as you could ever want. The springs will centralise it. Grab and stir like its a Ford and you get nowhere.

Clive.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Back in the mid 60's the wife's cousin acquired an Armstrong Siddley Saphire, a beautiful gleaming black beast with two large chrome headlamps. He carried out a conversion on it and changed it's knackered engine for a Perkins Marine Diesel, he was an automobile engineer so not too difficult to achieve, can't remember whether it was column change or not, turned into a beautiful car to ride in if not somewhat noisy with th diesel propulsion unit. Lost track of the car over the years but believe it ended up at the Montague Motor Museum at Beaulieu.

Dave W

[RRMBKParticipant @rrmbk]

Peugot, Citroen & Fiat used column change very successfully on their 90's range of Left hand drive mid range transverse engine vans. The column rod was designed and located to fit directly onto the the top of the selector rod protruding out of the top of the gearbox. It rotated a 1/4 turn either side of neutral and up and down about 1/2 above the centre, to give a sort of vertical gate. When new they were beautifully smooth changing with virtually no lost motion.

The vans were sold in the UK using the Talbot brand name which Peugot owned. Unfortunately whoever was given the thankless task of trying to convert this vertical and rotary movement into a Right hand drive, floor mounted gate about 3 feet away from the selector rod and also with its pivot point below it, ended up creating a pretty good replica in rod and wire, of a ball of wool after the kitten got hold of it.

So many joints that lost motion was inevitable and excessive, as a result of this the vans were never really successful in the UK, whereas in Europe there are still lots of them hard at work.

Couldn't agree more about the beauty of the delectable DS, but the balance characteristics carries on to some new models . I have had two punctures on the rear of my Citroen Picasso at speed and not realised either of them until another motorist flagged me down . No rear passenger in though , I suspect this would have made a difference.

I also learnt to drive on an early side valve Morris J and that gear lever behind you was odd till you got used to it. Even more awkward was that my instructor ( dad ) had to stand up, barking in my ear ( very noisy old vans ) as it only had one seat – no passenger seat fitted to save costs.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Moving upmarket.

Some Bentley cars used to have the gear stick on the right hand side of the drivers seat (my boss had one in 1973).

I think one particular Riley model featured that as well.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited By V8Eng on 28/11/2017 17:20:23

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by ChrisH on 28/11/2017 14:06:20:

"Better than a friends ghastly French car in the early 80s which had an umbrella handle sticking out the dash" I disagree Neil.

I had a Reno 4 in the 1970's, with the 845cc engine and the gear lever – umbrella handle sticking out the dash – was spring loaded to the middle vertical of an elongated 'H' – (elongated meaning it had 3 verticals in the 'H', R-1 up/down on the left, 2-3 up/down in the middle and 4 up on the right!) which gave the 2nd and 3rd gears. The system worked so well, going up and down 1-2-3-4-3-2-3-4-etc the box was so logical and easy, made driving a pleasure. You just push/pulled as required and gave a little turn to the right for 4 and left for 1 or R and it was as quick to change as I can write it!

My mate's car was probably a little more run in…

[Dod MoleParticipant @georgeclarihew]

https://goo.gl/images/YZBR2b

Pure American style influenced by the parent company, dashboard like a jukebox, blinded by chrome if the sun caught it. Bought mine in the early seventies when you could see me out in my white nylon polo neck, green velvet flares looking real . Lazy to drive with 3 lite straight six, only needed to come out of 3rd below 15 mph, handled like a soft mattress and could watch the fuel gauge collapse if driven over 50 still would buy another if I could find one that the tin worm hasn't eaten.

Pulled the future ex Mrs C in that passion wagon, the bench seat was popular with us.

Never had any problems with precise gearchanges, only problem with column changes was with my works Bedford 4 speeder, the handle broke off at the hinge and the garage fitted a replacement from a 3 speeder so we had to drive around for 3 weeks with no reverse gear selectable and that sure makes one think about where you are going.

The Austin BMC J series gears was like others have said were nearly behind the left knee and the driver had to stir the porridge and hope it was the gear you wanted. And they were the good old days or is nostalgia blind.

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Clive wrote "Maxi Mk1 version upsets the journalists and by osmosis all informed opinion agrees its hopeless."

I had one too and the gearchange was summed perfectly for me by one motoring journalist who likened it to "stirring a bucketfull of nuts and bolts with a bamboo cane".

Maxi Mk 1 – another sad example of innovative & clever British design let down by a poorly engineered feature. It had 5 doors, 5 gears, 1500 ohc engine and great roadholding for the mid 70s. Before that purchase I had a Standard Vanguard Vignale 6 with bench seat & 3 speed column change. So much torque you could move off in 3rd.
Those were the days…..Between 1950 and 1960, the number of vehicles on the roads of Britain more than doubled, from 4.0 million to 8.5 million. At the end of June 2017, there were 37.8 million vehicles registered for use on the road in Great Britain.(DVLA statistics).
Anyway, looks like manual boxes are on the way out "Last year, almost 650,000 new cars with an automatic gearbox were registered in Britain, representing a 55 per cent increase compared to 2013. It’s estimated that demand for automatic gearboxes is growing 300 per cent faster than the total market growth.It’s worth pointing out as well that alternative-fuel vehicles, including virtually all hybrids and fully-electric cars, tend to use an automatic gearbox. Alternative-fuel vehicles are becoming much more popular, with the year-to-date sale figures in the first third of 2017 already up by 23.8 per cent compared to the same time period last year."
(Source: https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/more-uk-drivers-are-picking-automatic-gearboxes-over-manual)

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Samsaranda's post re. engine 'swapping' reminded me of RAF Dishforth in the 50's. Underpaid cheapskates that we were, cars were rare and unusual – unusual in the sense that one of our lot appeared one day with a Packard Straight 8. The unusual bit was that lifting the bonnet revealed … an Austin 7 engine!!! Unsurprisingly, performance was less than sparkling – not helped by his fuel of choice being paraffin

My eventual 'steed' was a Standard 8 convertible – £60s worth of well rotted metal and fabric with a gearbox which had self-converted from synchromesh to crashbox and which ultimately ground to a halt at 1 AM between Ripon and Dishforth with OAT of 0degC and (then) G/F still in best stilettos. That romance was somewhat shortlived!

rgds

Bill

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Taking of torque, I had a P4 Rover 90 – otherwise known as an Auntie Car – which had a very long cranked gear lever with a ball pivot at the crank. It gave plenty of leg room but it had a design fault being so long and whippy. It snapped. Twice. No worries – to get a replacement each time I drove about 10 miles each way to the Rover dealer the other side of the nearest town in 4th; she pulled away from traffic lights and other stoppages no worries with not much more clutch than normal. And had a useful bench seat – useful if you were courting that is – and quiet well appointed solid feel to the whole car. Plus it would cruise all day at 85 down the motorway without batting an eyelid although the fuel gauge did go down somewhat. Oh happy days!

Chris

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/11/2017 12:33:24:

Better than a friends ghastly French car in the early 80s which had an umbrella handle sticking out the dash. Its position bore only a casual relationship to which gear you found yourself in.

Neil

Sounds like a 2CV with worn bushes on the linkage. The way to deal with that was to spend(!) up to £2 on new rubber bushes. I had a 2CV Dyane where the bushes got so worn they broke in two and fell off, leaving and only the central metal pin to operate the linkage. It went from 45 degrees between 1st and 4th to about 120 degrees when this happened.

I love my 2CV, but the gears are 'interesting'. My wife once had brain fade and tried to put the car in reverse when she wanted 4th. Amazingly enough we didn't get loose teeth in the gearbox.

Regards,

Richard.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by Fowlers Fury on 28/11/2017 23:33:10:

Clive wrote "Maxi Mk1 version upsets the journalists and by osmosis all informed opinion agrees its hopeless."

I had one too and the gearchange was summed perfectly for me by one motoring journalist who likened it to "stirring a bucketfull of nuts and bolts with a bamboo cane".

Maxi Mk 1 – another sad example of innovative & clever British design let down by a poorly engineered feature. It had 5 doors, 5 gears, 1500 ohc engine and great roadholding for the mid 70s. Before that purchase I had a Standard Vanguard Vignale 6 with bench seat & 3 speed column change. So much torque you could move off in 3rd.
Those were the days…..Between 1950 and 1960, the number of vehicles on the roads of Britain more than doubled, from 4.0 million to 8.5 million. At the end of June 2017, there were 37.8 million vehicles registered for use on the road in Great Britain.(DVLA statistics).
Anyway, looks like manual boxes are on the way out "Last year, almost 650,000 new cars with an automatic gearbox were registered in Britain, representing a 55 per cent increase compared to 2013. It’s estimated that demand for automatic gearboxes is growing 300 per cent faster than the total market growth.It’s worth pointing out as well that alternative-fuel vehicles, including virtually all hybrids and fully-electric cars, tend to use an automatic gearbox. Alternative-fuel vehicles are becoming much more popular, with the year-to-date sale figures in the first third of 2017 already up by 23.8 per cent compared to the same time period last year."
(Source: https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/more-uk-drivers-are-picking-automatic-gearboxes-over-manual)

I think with the move to more gears in the gearbox automatic has to be the way to go. I have an 8 speed auto and optional paddle shift, out of interest I tried the paddle shift but I found it much to busy to be any fun. Just sit back and let the car get on with it. Put the cruise control on and then it's just the steering to take care of, bring on the self driving cars I say.

Mike

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

So, sifting through the replies, and everyone certainly enjoyed the remenissing the answer seems to be:

1. It was a fashion thing and allowed bench seats.

2. It was probably influenced in the main by America

3. It wasn't lazyness on the part of the manufacturers as floor shifts were in existance prior to this.

4. The UK motor industry in the 50's and 60's was more switched on to market forces than one may have supposed.

Coming on to modern vehicles the only real way of maximising efficiency is to allow the engine management total control over power delivery so auto shift will become the norm just like injection replaced conventional carburation.

The initial post was an attempt to guess what was in the minds of the designers and manufacturers of the day and I think that has been answered in some measure. Certainly got a response anyhow.

regards Martin

[Fowlers FuryParticipant @fowlersfury]

Martin,
Certainly "it" originated in North America and during the severe post-war austerity, British manufacturing industry was instructed by govt. to export only. For some period, steel was only made available for making exported products. North America was then the affluent export market so Brit car makers had to make cars which conformed to US tastes.
Your point 4 must be contentious though. They were generally swtiched on to design trends but mostly failed to produce vehicles which were reliable enough for typical driving in North America e.g. sustained long distance cruising. Of course they were also guilty of that same failing for the home market or the Germans & Japanese would not have caused such devastation of our car (& m/cycle) industries from the early 60s.

I agree with Mike Poole's conclusion (except perhaps the value of cruise control on our congested roads). Having spent years "driving" on the M25: stop > edge forward > stop >… repeat for n miles, an automatic was, and is, considered essential. Likewise, I now forget my 8 speed transmission and have also tried the manual overide a few times but traffic density demands so much concentration these days, it's safer to let the ECM and drive train get on with it without my intervention.

[Note to self: must not get onto subject of m/way middle-lane drivers ]

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