Who trains these ideots?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

My apprenticeship for industrial maintenance electrician lasted 2 weeks less than 4 years. In a highly unionised car factory with the apprenticeship overseen by the EITB the emphasis was very much on learning with a rotation plan to take you to a variety of departments. It may surprise many just how much technology is in the production facility to build motor cars. The college course was the problem, the first year was a general engineering course followed by 5 years of day and block release on the C&G electrical technicians course so 6 years at tech. The training was very good as it was understood by everyone that learning was the priority and being used as cheap labour was not allowed, sweeping up and making tea was voluntary and I always felt taking a turn was never going to do me any harm and neither was a trip down the stores or a walk back to the shack to get a tool or spare part. I know this was probably as good as it gets but the opportunity was there to be grabbed with both hands. Over the the years I have worked with many apprentices and they have been a varied bunch, one of my best memories was a lad who was not blessed with the quickest mind but had a wonderful work ethic, it was a pleasure to take the time to explain something until he got it and answer his daily barrage of questions, the lads who never ask questions must be some clever buggers. I don’t know why some lads take up an apprenticeship when it’s clear they are totally disinterested in the job, I suppose knowing what you want to do isn’t in every youngsters mind when they are 16.

Mike

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 18/08/2020 18:45:27:

My daughter had a new bathroom suite installed, problem was that the soil pipe to toilet pan leaked, off the plumber went and got a super dooper loo connector – it still leaked. I had a look at the loo outlet and showed the plumber that the outlet wasn't round and that he had better get a replacement pan as it was never going to seal. Then he explained why he hadn't noticed the defect – "You see, I am really a heating engineer, not a plumber" Nuff said !

I suggest he wasn't much of any type of 'engineer' otherwise he would have seen what you saw.

Tony

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

I think the country is going to pot for the same reason.

Anyone with a brain and in independent streak used to do a trade where they could be their own boss. A good apprenticeship meant they could be trusted on their own.

For many years now the brighter and more industrious sort have gone to University. Leaving the rest, including all the wasters, snowflakes etc, who would have been fine in heavy industry being supervised, to cause chaos in domestic situations. Meanwhile the grads get the life sucked out of them by the corporate world.

We are doomed.

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Bit 'Off-Thread", but a bit of info for Circlip regarding his Sandero. I have had two new Dusters (last two models) with the same problem – up comes a warning with a very low mileage that "Service is Due'. Off to the garage, where I am told I must pay for an oil change, plug change + all filters changed – at less than 2000 kms. No use complaining, if I don't do it, then the guarantee may be 'affected'.

So the first time I paid up. A few hours online later, I found out that a simple keypress combination on the dashboard, or in some cases, pressing the pedals in a certain sequence, will reset the warning – and the garage is none the wiser – there is almost certainly a keypress solution for the Sandero similar to the Duster, since all Dacia cars have common design features. (I live in Romania, where these cars originated, and it is a well known issue here).

This design feature is a particularly bad move by Dacia Renault.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Who trains these idiots?

Easy! As babies are born as blank slates they can only learn from their stupid parents. And for the same reason our parental shortcomings must be directly blamed on incompetent grandparents.

So the idiots responsible for everything wrong today are you and me. We all deserve a d*mned good thrashing!

Dave

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

This appears to be in the wrong section, I think the tea room is the area for whining about the state of the world, this is in beginners questions. Of course, us pathetic waste of space younger generation will be happy to give the perfect generation some tips if they can stop navel gazing for a few minutes.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Thanks An Other, tried the Ignition on, depress and hold accelerator pedal down and pump brake pedal three times. Doesn't work on second generation, clever bu****s have changed the system. Will be going down the plug in route or if you know the keypress code, a PM will help.

Regards Ian.

Anyone know where I can obtain quantities of eye of toad and toes of lizard?

Edited By Circlip on 18/08/2020 22:25:41

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Mike Poole on 18/08/2020 19:41:16:

My apprenticeship for industrial maintenance electrician lasted 2 weeks less than 4 years. In a highly unionised car factory with the apprenticeship overseen by the EITB the emphasis was very much on learning with a rotation plan to take you to a variety of departments. It may surprise many just how much technology is in the production facility to build motor cars. The college course was the problem, the first year was a general engineering course followed by 5 years of day and block release on the C&G electrical technicians course so 6 years at tech. The training was very good as it was understood by everyone that learning was the priority and being used as cheap labour was not allowed, sweeping up and making tea was voluntary and I always felt taking a turn was never going to do me any harm and neither was a trip down the stores or a walk back to the shack to get a tool or spare part. I know this was probably as good as it gets but the opportunity was there to be grabbed with both hands. Over the the years I have worked with many apprentices and they have been a varied bunch, one of my best memories was a lad who was not blessed with the quickest mind but had a wonderful work ethic, it was a pleasure to take the time to explain something until he got it and answer his daily barrage of questions, the lads who never ask questions must be some clever buggers. I don’t know why some lads take up an apprenticeship when it’s clear they are totally disinterested in the job, I suppose knowing what you want to do isn’t in every youngsters mind when they are 16.

Mike

Many years back I had an apprentice join the shift I supervised all electrical apprentice spent time in various departments on days however the last 12 months of their time was spent working on one of the four shifts working a 3 shift system . When this young man joined us I had been warned he was trouble and soon discovered why he would not make tea, take turn in sweeping up or go to the stores so when I suggested to any of my electricians they take the apprentice in question with them on a job with them they refused so I now had a young man sitting on his backside for 8 hrs so unfortunately I had no choice but to ask the training officer to take him off my shift and I'm afraid that without the knowledge gain during the time on shifts he failed trade test and was let go! Asking one of my sparkies why they refused to take him on jobs he replied they didn't feel they should impart their knowledge on someone with such a bad attitude

H

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I'm on my second Sandero (first one was T-boned by a lady on a roundabout, who hadn't noticed my son indicating and turning right).

I don't have a problem with the service schedule when the car is still in warrantee. Why should I?

I think that they are brilliant cars and (to paraphrase Simon in the garage). New, they're a Renault with £10,000 in the glovebox.

If we eventually wear this one out, it'll probably get replaced with a Logan…

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Year after our gas water heater was fitted (most work by me, connected and signed off by competent plumber) we needed an inspection and certificate as we were hosting an exchange student. Known plumber was not avilable, so booked a local who was. I leaft the manual on the counter for him, he moved it aside..
1/ could not get cover off.
2/ Him "where's the thermostat?" Me "there isn't one" Him " there must be one for the boiler", Me "it's not a boiler it's a water heater"
3/ told me he could not sign it off as we didn't have a fixed vent in the kitchen. I explained that as it was a sealed balanced flue design it didn't need a fixed vent and if it did the cooker hood met the requirement.

Friend of SWMBO complaining that the had a slight leak (like excessive damp down a downstairs wall( and two plumbers had looked but failed to find the problem or didn't want to be bothered. As SWMBO was visting them in a cople of days I said I'd have look. Sure enough wet wall (side B), what's above – tap end of bath side A of wall. Go upstairs and look no leak under bath and cold pipe goes through bigish hole in wall reach in as far a possible but no water. Go in bedroom (side B of wall) where one plumber refused to lift carpet unless given full job without quote. and ther is a cut floorboard, Lift it and there is a mist underneath. seens to be coming from a "yorkshire" solder joint T. Closer inspection shows it's near the joint at hacksaw "strike" where the original fitter slipped cutting the pipe. The thinned wall eventually cracked. It was all a bit tight with pipes wall and joist so I cut the end off a capiliary straight coupler, cut an anged slot in it, cleaned and lightly fluxed it and the pipe, slipped it over the cut in the pipe and soldered it up. Total time 40 minutes! You could call hat a bodge But I bet it will last as long as the other plumbing in he house.

Robert G8RPI

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

What is the point of a long apprenticeship if one does not need it?

Take, for example a roofer, Why spend years wasting time learning how to lay felt or weld lead & fit slates if all one wants the employee to do is lay Redland interlocking roof tiles. Or train a carpenter to cut rafters, if all he is going to do is fit kitchen units.

I use that as a simple example to ilustrate a point. I also feel that the old fashioned idea that an apprenticeship MUST be over a set period of years. Some lads pick up things very quickly. Some need years to learn. that is just the way of things. I hung my first door at the age of 12 & it was still swinging on its hinges until earlier this year , when they demolished the house. I was site foreman at 18, for 5 months.(Thundersley ESN School Essex) overseeing about 12 operatives.

The trade one covers by "plumbing" is extremely wide & it would be quite reasonable for an operative to be trained in household installations but not in industrial ones. He might not have training in gas installation, thus leaving that part to another. The problem arises when that operative claims to have knowledge in other skills ie the roofer claiming to be an excellent felter.

For that reason, should not certification accompany all skills in the form of NVQ's of various levels & should those NVQ certs be available to the customer for examination? In that way the customer would know that the operative has had the training, if not the "attitude", for the work in hand.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Had many experiences of gas boilers failing, thats why I eventually changed to solid fuel.

The lack of skill in repairing them was staggering, whether it be a one man outfit or one of the large organisations. Off the cover would come, poke about a bit, step outside to make a phone call, order bits that didn't fix it.

Eventually fixed at great expense, usually not for long, repeat above. Was I just unlucky with gas boilers?

My parents had a gas boiler that performed with total reliability for 30 years. Only replaced because of asbestos based insulation.

On the electrical side just the opposite, what little work I've needed to be done was done quickly and well, as far as I could tell. One electrician sticks in my mind, a young lad was sent to change the meter, less than straightforward because of leaky old type insulation. Did a great job, made it look easy, a sure sign of great competency!

I think we can still train people to do a good job. Having said that its as much to do with the trainee wanting to learn as it is to do with the length and quality of the teaching

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Congratulations Mark, also my second Sandero,, first was three years old, 12k on clock and came with two years free service and free MOT for life. This one bought new last year, as stated has 2140 on clock now and just cost £112 to have orange light turned off. Vehicle health check, page full of green ticks and tyres good with 6.9 to 6.7mm tread, WHAT a surprise. Analyser/resetter is going to cost a lot less.

Regards Ian.

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

There is nothing new in this. It has always been the same.

if you take a class of 30 people learning anything from plumbing to brain surgery, one will finish at the top of the class and one will finish at the bottom.

A sobering thought when you have someone drilling your teeth.

Regards.

David.

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

There is nothing new in the world, I guess, and there have always been incompetent tradesman in all disciplines, but I'd like to play devils advocate for a while…

There is no excuse for a plumber advising buying a new, expensive boiler without even taking a look at the old one, but he is hardly responsible for the price: he hasn't made it, it has come from some manufacturing company somewhere, who supplies the plumber. True, he probably added his markup, but if the price is high anyway….

I mention this because I had a good friend who was a plumber all his life (and did an apprenticeship). His favourite moan was 'bl**dy customers'. As he said, his job was not an 8 to 5 thing – it was 24 hours, 7 days a week, public holidays included. It wasn't difficult to imagine a customer panicking when a leak developed late at night and calling the plumber, but as my mate said '…and I'd just got home after a 12 hour day' – the customer doesn't see it from the other side of the fence. He said he tried to help the customer if he could, and would often turn out late at night, or on a weekend, but often there was little he could do. Many times he complained about going to an emergency, finding (for example) a leak, then having to do several hours work to locate and close a rusted stop-valve. He said he had even found in some case the idiot home-owner had covered the valve with 'renovations' or 'updates'. Of course, as he said, he could just go home and leave it – not his problem if the house-owner was a fool, but he claimed he rarely did that.

He used to describe one call to find a leak, where he found a hole through a pipe: the customer had found it, apparently, prised up the floorboard, and taped up the leak using plastic electricians tape, then replaced the floorboard. Of course, it was only a matter of time before the leak started again. When my friend got there, the householder denied all knowledge of it, until it was located. When challenged, he finally admitted finding the nail he had driven through the pipe – and thats the plumbers fault???

And as he also pointed out – 'my wife isn't a plumber, so what do I tell her about working all hours, and having no home life'?

Of course, times have changed, but all my life I can remember people whinging about the incompetence of workmen. I don't believe they have changed that much – I think what has changed is peoples tolerance and understanding – everything has to be done now, for as low a cost as possible, with no regard to anyone or anything else.

Edited By An Other on 19/08/2020 12:01:58

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

 

Who trains these ideots?

Deleted!

Deleted as I cannot comprehend how sombody who cannot spell idiots can complain about idiots!

Edited By Danny M2Z on 19/08/2020 12:18:02

Edited By Danny M2Z on 19/08/2020 12:23:01

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

About 25 years ago, I was the Quality Assurance Manager at a manufacturer of positive displacement pumps, we had a small number of apprentices who went to college full time for a number of months and on their return were put to work in production. They were hopelessly out of their depth when confronted with machining components on a lathe. My office was adjacent to the factory floor and the apprentices knew that they could always come to me and get whatever assistance I could give them, quite often I was out at their machines advising speeds and feeds so that they could achieve the required surface finishes. I didn’t serve a machine shop apprenticeship but drew on my learning when I had spent considerably more time at college than these apprentices. The management of the company were quite happy to take on apprentices and send them to college for a few months and that was considered an apprenticeship, from what I have read in this article, little appears to have changed and probably has got worse, a sad state for our engineering which used to have first class apprenticeships.
Dave W

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

"Anyone know where I can obtain quantities of eye of toad and toes of lizard?"

Ian, I've found that eye of potato and tooth of comb make an effective substitute.

As for the decline in apprenticeships and engineering generally, it's not to be wondered at. Successive governments have shifted the UK towards a 'service economy' where I take in your washing and you take in my washing, and we both get rich. True wealth creation comes only from what you make, mine or grow, but the people who do that are seen as costing money, whereas the people who manipulate money are seen as the wealth generators. Unfortunately, the people in power are mostly drawn from the money manipulating class and have no interest beyond skimming off their share of the profits.

George B.

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Samsaranda on 19/08/2020 12:08:26:

About 25 years ago, I was the Quality Assurance Manager at a manufacturer of positive displacement pumps, we had a small number of apprentices who went to college full time for a number of months and on their return were put to work in production. They were hopelessly out of their depth when confronted with machining components on a lathe. My office was adjacent to the factory floor and the apprentices knew that they could always come to me and get whatever assistance I could give them, quite often I was out at their machines advising speeds and feeds so that they could achieve the required surface finishes. I didn’t serve a machine shop apprenticeship but drew on my learning when I had spent considerably more time at college than these apprentices. The management of the company were quite happy to take on apprentices and send them to college for a few months and that was considered an apprenticeship, from what I have read in this article, little appears to have changed and probably has got worse, a sad state for our engineering which used to have first class apprenticeships.
Dave W

A classic example of incorrect training. They did not need a long appreticeship. They probably spent time at college learning tasks that had no relevance to the work that you needed. ie they may have been using a milling machine.

What should have happened is that the company should have sent them to be trained to turn their particular components. They would have been far more use.

Do you think that in WW11 the girls on the lathes were trained in every part of a Spitfire engine? No they were taught to make a part. In the same way the training needs to match what industry needs.

If later those apprentices need to use a different machine, then they get sent to learn how to use it. That way one gets skills in a short time & industry gets what it needs fast. Over the years techinques change. Why spend a week learning how to sharpen HSS cutters, if the firm only uses tipped cutters? Training needs to adapt for that & industry needs to send its staff to update at regular intervals.

That way we can compete with the world.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 19/08/2020 12:57:17

[An OtherParticipant @another21905]

Hi, Circlip (Ian)

Don't know about the various Harry Potter accessories, but I PMed you with a method how to cancel the Service Warning. I know there are several methods used, depending on the model/year. I think I have sent you the Sandero method, but let me know if not, and I'll try again.

Keith

[Alistair Robertson 1Participant @alistairrobertson1]

A few years ago we made some special gearboxes for the MOD. A simple bevel gearbox with one input shaft and one double ended output shaft, simple!

The MOD fley an "expert" up from London to check them out and sign the acceptance paperwork. Well I never saw such an incompetent person. He checked the specification from his paperwork and couldn't work out the ratio of input turns to output turns. We had assigned him an apprentice to help him and after about half an hour the apprentice came to me and said "That guy is a complete *********!***** I went to see what was going on and had to agree as the guy was measuring the turns of one of the output shafts and could not get it to agree with the other end of the same shaft!!

I was able to put up with this for about 30 minutes when I lost the plot and ordered the guy from the premises, he had used a taxi from the airport 30 miles away and the taxi was supposed to wait for him all day if needed.

I phoned his boss in the MOD and said I had never seen such incompetence and I was told he was the best guy they had! I said "well I wouldn't like to meet your worst"

I told them I would not supply the gearboxes and cancelled the order there and then. Well! all hell broke loose and they said "You can't do that as we are desperate for those boxes" My reply was "I will see you in Court!"

Next day a very nice phone call from the MOD big cheese pacified me and that afternoon four senior engineers flew up and checked out the boxes, in about 30 minutes they were checked and the paperwork signed.

On asking about the first engineer I was told he was their boss and did not have a clue about engineering!

Sometimes you wonder how the world has survived when people like that are in charge!

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

Sadly all of us of a certain age can recall similar tales.
I did did a technician apprenticeship 40 years ago and I am still benefiting from skills learned on the job, whether at work or in this ME hobby. The college aspect not so. I would say over 95% of what was learned at college has never been used in anger. The only exception being Optical Loss calculations, which I did in 1987. Landed a job in 2000 where they were darned useful.

Edited By Stuart Bridger on 19/08/2020 15:18:28

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Usually known as Peter's Principle. Promoted beyond their level of competence.

When our Director left, there was a general reshuffle, leaving my colleague and I without a superior. My colleague was no good for the job as he only had 20 years experience of the components involved.

The replacement was a lovely young chap, with a degree in recent History. He had never had any dealings with the parts for which we were responsible,.so was ideal to be in charge of a £3M per annum spend on the most technically advanced components. In the eyes of someone!

Lovely guy, charming, better qualified than either of us, but an embarrassment when dealing outside the company, or even inside it.

Later, I used to mentor undergraduates on their gap year. Some were practical and willing to learn. Thank goodness, only two knew it all and were unwilling to learn or understand. The good ones rapidly became capable of being given a job and left to do it, almost unsupervised.

One, soon after joining us, with his degree, was sent overseas to show the parent company how to perform a particular task.

It just depends upon the will to learn.

Howard

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Stuart Bridger on 19/08/2020 15:18:03:

Sadly all of us of a certain age can recall similar tales.
I did did a technician apprenticeship 40 years ago and I am still benefiting from skills learned on the job, whether at work or in this ME hobby. The college aspect not so. I would say over 95% of what was learned at college has never been used in anger. The only exception being Optical Loss calculations, which I did in 1987. Landed a job in 2000 where they were darned useful.

Edited By Stuart Bridger on 19/08/2020 15:18:28

My experience of college was totally different. I really appreciate the luck I had to go to a fantastice building college. The things I learned there carried me right through my building career. I have nothing but praise for the lecturers. How they managed to cope with a bunch of yobs with too much money & little respect , more interested in chasing crumpet, I will never know. I kept my college notes (I still have them) & recall referring to pieces of structural design 15 years later.

My son went on a similar course at the same college(one of my fellow students was head of dept) & it was a disaster. Poorly run with far less practical content, some of which had no bearing on his future job. A disappointment

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 19/08/2020 15:57:34

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

in the last century it took 2 wars to demonstrate that we could find and promote people to make a difference but though major changes were made (esp in 1945-1950) it didn’t take long before the old class system regained its power – the next 10 years will be interesting unfortunately as in the Chinese curse re interesting times as all indications are for an even bigger depression than in the 1930s.

[Author]

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