Whitworth’s Octagonal Sniper rifle

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

I've recently come across the Whitworth Rifle (yes him of the screw thread, scraping and many other things). The actual source was in sort of Alternate Universe Fantasy series by William Forschten (the Lost Regiment) which I can recommend.

Apparently it was incredibly accurate for the time (mid 19th century) with a accuracy of 4 inches at 500 yards. Well, it sounds impressive to me and gun buffs appear to salivate.

What intrigues me is that it has a spiral octagonal bore. Apparently because something which is flat is easier to measure than something which is round.

I can't quite get my head round how you can make an yard long octagonal bore. Well pretty much at all, really, let along with what must have though level accuracy.

I have NO doubt that someone on here knows though …

Iain

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

How do they make it?

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I doubt very much if the quoted accuracy is correct. A good modern full bore rifle would be unable to match those sorts of figures, let alone a crude mid 19th centuary rifle.

Andrew.

N.B. I am referring to the types of full bore rifle available to shooters in this country. I have no idea what state of the art military rifles are like. Full bore supersonic ammunition is very susceptible to cross winds, which makes it all academic.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hot forging over a pattern?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I'd suggest a twisted broach, and a machine that pulled it through whilst twisting it.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Apparently, the numbers come from a competition held by the British Army in around 1850. They are well know in the US for having been used with good effect by the Confederates. Despite the numbers the Army didn't order them – a combination of expense and politics from what I've read.

Iain

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

I think the octagonal bore rifle is the one that Queen Victoria used to open the NRA shooting contest at Bisley by hitting the bullseye at extreme range (spoiler – the rifle was set up in a fixture so all she had to do was pull the trigger).

Brian G

(There may be a reference to this in David Gladwin's "History of the British Steam Tram", unfortunately my copy is at my son's house).

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

From a source quoted in Wikipedia " In 1860, the British National Rifle Association held its first annual meeting at Wimbledon. Queen Victoria fired the first shot from a Whitworth rifle on a machine rest at 400 yards (370 m), and struck the bull's-eye 1 to 1+1⁄4 inches (25–32 mm) from its center."

Albeit on a carefully aligned machine rest, that seems to support the claim.

A quick read around does seem to imply that it was a very impressive piece of engineering. There is an interesting video at Shooting the .451 Whitworth civil war sniper rifle – YouTube which has details of the tests in 1856 ( at about 1:30) and shows the muzzle and hexagonal bullets. However it also makes the point that a when a remington pistol could be had for US$17 the price of a  (albeit smuggled) whitworth rifle was US$1000

I found it fascinating.

Edited By Peter Cook 6 on 20/09/2022 18:04:49

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 20/09/2022 16:48:26:

I doubt very much if the quoted accuracy is correct. A good modern full bore rifle would be unable to match those sorts of figures, let alone a crude mid 19th centuary rifle.

Andrew.

N.B. I am referring to the types of full bore rifle available to shooters in this country. I have no idea what state of the art military rifles are like. Full bore supersonic ammunition is very susceptible to cross winds, which makes it all academic.

A baker rifle could obtain very good accuracy with a good marksman. The 95th rifles during the Napoleonic wars had marksmanship competitions most months. A good modern rile can beat the figures given with ease. And I am a ex army sniper.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

.

P.S. __ count those flats 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/09/2022 18:48:00

[Max ToleranceParticipant @maxtolerance69251]

Joseph Whitworth did a lot of things during his life. He had at one time the largest machine tool manufacturing company in the world This was in Manchester. He also had a large house built in Fallowfield set in 52 acres. He became interested in fire arms when he was asked to look into the problem of accuracy of the current smooth bore rifles and whether it was possible to make a a rifled barrel. At the time the science of ballistics hadn't been invented. So, Joseph had a long brick building erected in his house grounds. Where he would hang sheets of paper from the ceiling and fired various guns etc. The bullet (or more accurately the ball) would leave a series of holes in the paper and show the trajectory of the projectile. From this he designed the hexagonal bore as a way of spinning the bullet and improving the accuracy.

He also built larger guns for trails for the navy and army. The trials were carried out on Southport sands but his rival Lord Armstrong was also trying for the contract. Needless to say a Lord trumps an uneducated northerner and the contract went to Armstrong even though his guns were less accurate. Interestingly another witness to these trials was a German by the name of Krupp. But that is another story.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Armstrong was from Newcastle, so even northerner, and his family were corn merchants, not aristos.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Lot's on the web about rifling machines which can quite primitive, early examples and homemade being mostly wood:

Hauling on the handles pulls a cutter through the barrel whilst also turning the pull rod. The spiral cut guide is visible in front of the operator.

Whitworth's machines were made of metal and automated.

Dave

[DiodeDickParticipant @diodedick]

There is a passing reference to Queen Victoria in Gladwin's History of the British Steam Tram, volume 5, page 202. The rifle that she used for the first shot fired at Wimbledon is in the NRA museum at Bisley, together with the target.

Dick

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Just to digress slightly, you might find the Lancaster oval bore rifling system of interest. Bit of a write-up to be found here.

Rob

Links to https://collegehillarsenal.com/British-Lancasters-Patent-Oval-Bore-Sappers-Miners-Carbine

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I read one time about a chap in the US who lived inthe backwoods who made his own guns. he used old vehiclle axles and used a lead cast slug with a part of a hacksaw blade to cut the rifling, anything is possible.

I had a black powder rifle, cal. .567 and it had Ogive rifling. It was made by a Sottish gun maker who it seems has little history that I could find. The rifle was made in 1860.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

Shot using a bench rest rifle an accurate rifle available to anyone with a FAC and the money to pay for one.

The smallest group of five shots at 500 m (546 yd) is 26.6 mm (1.048 in) by Dave Goodridge (Australia) at the SSAA Magura Range, Canberra, Australia on 29 August 1998.

[JAParticipant @ja]

What about the consistency of the ammunition?

The only bench rest shooter I knew batched his bullets, powder and cases (weight = volume) and the choose the closest twelve or so to make his rounds.

JA

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Whilst unrelated in some ways, in the (very) early 80s I build an interface for the Apple II for what I think was the Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield (it was a long time ago), intended to check the rifling on a barrel.

I delivered it and watched them push it down something with a bore of perhaps one inch, only to find there was a lot of noise in the output (rotational transducers mainly), which they ascribed to their hardware and took delivery!

I may have got some of these details wrong as it was over 40 years ago, but it did leave me with a mild interest in rifles.

Iain

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

JA

If you want accurate rounds for your rifle, you load your own. It’s an interesting process load development and relaxing. For a bench rest rifle you could around 100 shots to get a load that shoots tight groups.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

The .451 Whitworth was a percussion rifle, so accurate loading would involve weighing each powder charge and controlling compression and therefore ramming depth.

At distances where trajectory becomes significant – which it certainly would be at 500 yards – however good your rifling might be you'd never get results like that if your load consistency wasn't as near technically perfect as the best equipment of the period could provide. Victorian black powder could certainly reach very high standards of quality and consistency.

1 minute of angle is about an inch per hundred yards – the claimed group size is a bit under 1 minute. There are certainly target rifles today capable of grouping in much less than 1 MoA.. For reference, a decent but unexceptional Lee-Enfield .303 is typically regarded as a 2-minute rifle.

[Author]

Posts