Whitworth v UNC

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

Ladies & Gentlemen

What's the difference between 3/8 x 16 BSW(Whitworth) and 3/8 x 16 UNC, please?

Are they interchangeable?

By that I mean will a 3/8 Whit thread screw into a 3/8 UNC threaded hole?

Very many thanks for taking the time to read this

MC

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

The two threads have different flank angles. 55 degrees vs 60 degrees. They also have different profiles, Whitworth having rounded crests.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Whit is 55deg, UNC 60deg. you may get lucky if it's a slack thread or you may get it stuck

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi MC you could screw a UNC screw into a Whitworth hole but the thread angle is different 55 deg to 60 deg. But you can't do the reverse as the route angle foules but you could tap the hole Whitworth if it dosnt compromise the hole.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 17/11/2020 18:59:45

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Many years ago, our Chief Engineer would not have Unified threads, so vehicles with Unified threads soon became hybrid. It was standard practice to tap the securing holes for the compressed air brake unloader valve from UNC to BSW so that we could use his beloved Whit form fixings.

One problem that having been made to change, on delivery, all prop shaft bolts from UNF to BSF, after having discarded the UNF nyloc nuts, we had to drill the BSF bolts so that split pins could be fitted into his beloved castellated nuts.

Fortunately, his successor had more sense!

Howard

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

In the UK aircraft industry, unified threads were seen as the spawn of the devil. Purely due to the potential for mismatching resulting in dangerously reduced strength. All aircraft grade fasteners with unified threads had to be specifically marked with a symbol with three circles.

Edited By Stuart Bridger on 17/11/2020 19:48:02

[colin branniganParticipant @colinbrannigan54160]

Any Unified nuts made for MOD were marked with the circles above, the hex bar before issue to machine shop was pushed through a rolling die which marked one flat for the whole length, that was back in the 60's.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I have a Pratt 6 3/4" three jaw chuck with serrated jaws, It has 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 inch coarse threads, and as whitworth and UNC are similar in these sizes, I had difficulty identifying them.

Airbus use both Unified and metric in their aircraft. There should be no danger of mixing them up, as you don't get the fasteners out of a sack when working on aircraft. It was a cardinal sin committed when somebody put screws that were too short in that airliner windscreen.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

3/8"x16 is a thread size that has become standard in the film and video industry (as has 1/4×20).

I know there is an ISO standard for the 1/4" thread (probably one too for the 3/8" so all camera and grip equipment have male and female threads that work with legacy UNC and Whitworth kit.

Must add though that these fixings are mostly hand tightened and not under great stress.

Ian P

Edited by punching that smiley up its bracket

 

Edited By Ian P on 17/11/2020 20:50:12

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In case of confusion in the above it may help someone to know that a SoutBend lathe chuck backplate (UN) does NOT screw onto a Boxford spindle (W) although they are the 'same' size.

[Anonymous]

Posted by old mart on 17/11/2020 20:41:32:

………….screws that were too short in that airliner windscreen.

The real problem was that 84 of the 90 bolts were 8-32 UNC rather than the correct 10-32 UNF, so were too small a diameter. The remaining 6 bolts were the correct 10-32 UNF but were 0.1" too short.

Andrew

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I knew it was something like that with the windscreen. I would have expected that all new fasteners with the correct part number would have been issued for the job. I'm also surprised that 8-32 screws did not strip out of the 10-32 holes when they were torqued up.

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

The fasteners were not issued to the job, they were picked out by the maintenance fitter from two locations, one of which was so dark that he couldn't see what he was picking. At the main stores he also ignored the storeman who knew what the correct bolts were.

An absolute classic in how not to maintain aircraft (or anything else).

Brian

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

There has been some interesting things posted BUT…

Back to my original question and clarification

I am thinking of buying some inexpensive 123 blocks here:

Link Removed see CofC

The description indicates that some of the holes are threaded 3/8 x 16 – but I can't see any indication if they are BSW or UNC

I have asked the local Fastener supplier if they stock machine screws in 3/8 BSW or UNC and await a reply

Buying a handful of screws by post would be uneconomic.

Very many thanks for all the hel and comments

MC

Edited By JasonB on 18/11/2020 10:07:19

[oldveloParticipant @oldvelo]

Good luck trying to put 1/2 inch U.N.C. nut on whitworth and vice versa

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

It's 3/8 inch x 16 NOT 1/2 inch

I apologise for NOT writing clearly

[Anonymous]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 17/11/2020 21:31:49:

The real problem was that 84 of the 90 bolts were 8-32 UNC rather than the correct 10-32 UNF, so were too small a diameter.

Did this come out of some kind of official investigation or is it simply internet "information"?

I commonly use UN hardware on this side of the pond and based on my experience, I was having real trouble imagining this so I just popped into the shop and checked. I'm still having real trouble imagining it.

An 8-32 screw in a 10-32 hole is as loose as the proverbial pigs' droppings. Wobbles around so much it feels likely to drop right through. Presumably the "fitter" who assembled the screws was at least slightly qualified for the job, in which case he couldn't fail to notice something was wrong IMO.

And since it's an aircraft assembly, was there no QC person in attendance?

[peak4Participant @peak4]

It's all explained in the formal final report HERE
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422faa7e5274a131400078d/1-1992_G-BJRT_2_.pdf

I particularly like section 4.7 of the safety recommendations near the end of the document.

Bill

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Quote" And since it's an aircraft assembly, was there no QC person in attendance?"

The maintenance fitter was considered to be qualified hence no one else looking over his shoulder.

Brian

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MC, my 1-2-3 blocks have 3/8" UNC threads in them, but 3/8" Whit bolts will screw into them OK, although they will wobble about slightly more than a UNC bolt does. I would say that for the most work that a home workshop is likely to do, a Whit bolt would probably be OK to use.

Incidentally, the almost complete circle with the figure 1 in the gap as seen in the photo below, I have only even seen on UNF and UNC nuts.

3/8" UNC threads will go tight into a normal 3/8" Whit nut.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 18/11/2020 08:49:35

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

It is useful to note that the Unified standard has five tolerance classes

Which helps explain how there comes to be a range of perceived ‘compatibility’ with Whitworth threads.

MichaelG.

.

More authoritative references are available, but Wikipedia should suffice: **LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Thread_Standard#Tolerance_classes

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

That's encouraging. Thank you

I have written to the Seller and asked for clarification as to whether it's BSW or UNC on the blocks listed.

MC

[Anonymous]

Posted by Peter Greene on 18/11/2020 01:17:39:

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 17/11/2020 21:31:49:

The real problem was that 84 of the 90 bolts were 8-32 UNC rather than the correct 10-32 UNF, so were too small a diameter.

Did this come out of some kind of official investigation or is it simply internet "information"?

It came from the AAIB report. Thanks to peak4 for posting the link.

I check my facts before posting. It would behove you to do the same before casting aspersions.

Andrew

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

What a good question! I can't remember ever using the threaded holes in my blocks, which I bought expecting them to be metric. I just checked – they're; M8, which doesn't help MC at all.

My guess is MC's blocks are most likely 3/8"x16UNC because it's a current thread-form common in the US. BSW is unlikely because it's been fading away since the UK standardised on Unified Threads in 1948,. BSW survived in UK motor manufacturing until about 1980, but since then hasn't been used in new designs. Unified threads didn't replace BSW wholesale in the UK because metrication provided a better alternative.

BSW and UNC ⅜ x 16tpi threads fit together, but it's not recommended. The fit is weak because the thread angles are 5° different – low holding strength, and liable to come apart when vibrated. More likely to be done by accident than deliberately but the bodge may not matter in 1-2-3 blocks. If it does matter, the Internet is your friend. Although new BSW are hard to source, there are loads of people selling them second-hand on ebay. UNC are available new, but they too are gradually fading away.

Advice to anyone setting up a new workshop in 2020, go metric young man!

Dave

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