Which tool to lube mini lathe?

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

Here’s a beginners question: I bought my mini lathe second hand and have not been instructed as to how to oil/grease those little lubrication points which I find scattered around the machine. They aren’t big enough to use a grease gun and so far i have depressed the ball and dropped some oil in the opening in the hope that enough gets through to the working faces.

Some of the lubrication points are in awkward to reach places, what do people use to properly lube their machines via these points?

 

Cheers

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If you have a pump action oilcan with a narrow nozzle, just press the nozzle down on the ball which will locate it then squeeze to force oil past the ball.  I’ve been doing this for years on a couple of machines.  Also I have a “grease gun” filled with Nuto32 for the oiling nipples on the Myford.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

I filled an el-cheapo oil can from Machine Mart with ATF for mine. I still use it on the WM250 that replaced the mini-lathe.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Far-eastern machines often come with a pump action can like this: like Nick, mine is full of ATF!

Not ideal because the spout is straight, making it difficult to align with some oil-points, so oiling can get messy.  One with a bendy spout might be better:

 

Cruel world that it is, I have yet to find a perfect oil can, and am of the opinion that no such thing has ever existed!  They all leak and cause some sort of mess being filled or in action.

Fortunately, on a lathe the can doesn’t matter much, provided a dollop of oil gets past the ball-bearing seal.   On a couple of mine I poke the ball with a screw-driver to make sure oil actually gets in, because I’m not completely certain oil-pressure from the can is enough.   Others work very obviously. Any excess oil is just wiped over the lathe with a clean cloth.

Some folk fit one-shot oiler systems.   I don’t think they’re worth the bother on most hobby machines.

You might like to consider using “Way Oil” on the slides.   I tend to splash what ever is handy on my lathe just to keep it clean and slippery, but “Way Oil” definitely feels better.

Dave

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

Cruel world that it is, I have yet to find a perfect oil can, and am of the opinion that no such thing has ever existed!  They all leak and cause some sort of mess being filled or in action.

 

I have actually done a bit of research into this recently, and come to the conclusion that old vintage oil cans are less prone to leak than the modern ones like the one in your picture. The reason, according to my extensive research – leaving various oil cans in the Myford drip tray surrounded by various paper towels — is the modern oil cans all have small-bore, parallel spouts like the one in your picture.

The old cans with a large tapered spout, starting out at about a half inch diameter at the can and tapering down to the point at the dispensing end, do not leak.

The problem seems to be (and I stress seems in the absence of definitive testing) that thick viscous oil rises up the narrow parallel spout of the modern cans by capillary action, then gets over the curve at the top of the spout and runs downhill to the tip, whence it dribbles out, creating somewhat of a siphoning action at the same time.

Some oil cans, depending how fast the oil comes out and the design of the tip, dribble healthy droplets straight down onto the telltale paper towel under the end of the spout. Others, dribbling more slowly in more of a sickly ooze than definitive drops, have the oil dribble back down the outside of the spout and run down the outside of the reservoir can on to the strategically placed paper towel under its base. This, you would swear, is caused by the can leaking around the base seam area etc. But multiple oil cans over the years have been tested for leaks, coated with sealant etc etc and still ended up standing in a puddle of their own muck when left standing for any length of time.  Very frustrating as you have found.

But a couple of recently acquired ancient oil cans with the traditional large diameter tapered spout passed the test with flying colours. The spouts are too large at the base to promote capillary action (according to my theory!) All paper towels left unsoiled.

So one is filled with ISO32 hydraulic oil and the other with whatever clean engine oil was leftover from the last oil change and both sit in the Myford drip tray, high and dry and not surrounded by the usual mess. The oil mess in the tray from the bearing drip feeders, it turns out, is minimal once the errant modern oil cans were shunted off and replaced with the period correct good ‘uns as below.

Standing your oil can on a square of paper towel and also wrapping some paper towel around the spout and securing with a rubber band for a few days or weeks will reveal if you have a dripper or a dribbler. (Or if as in one case I had, the old oil can has rust pinholes in the base from moisture that sat there for years at the bottom of the oil, but that is a different issue!)

 

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

Thanks for the ideas, I’ve found that can with a straight nozzle are a challenge to get in to some oilers I shall have a look for one with a flexible neck.

I did wonder about how i could adapt a 60ml syringe to provide ‘the encouragement’ to get the oil past the ball?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

I’ve long considered that a promising solution to this problem would be to use a nozzle having a central pin to depress the ball and a recess round the outside holding an O ring to seal against the surround.

Probably work best on the end of an L shaper spout fitted to an American Eagle style horizontal trigger, horizontal output oil can. There are couple of sets of plans out there for home shop made versions, one via MEW. The pump design seems to be rather better engineered than the usual suspects, even the old style tapered spout ones which are generally more engineered than the modern versions made for economical production above all else.

Twisting an L shape spout vertical ought to greatly reduce the drip issue when parked.

Inspecting the American Eagle pump design I suspect a cunning modification incorporating the tank vent hole into the pump block in a manner that allows it to be sealed on the final return stroke may be possible. The tank ends up under negative pressure which should suck the oil back. The hard bit being how to detect the last stroke and operate the vent seal without encumbering the operation.

Double stroking of the operating plunger is potentially workable where the pump seals the vent after the odd number strokes whilst the even number stroke lifts the oil into the discharge chamber without delivering anything to the spout. The oil sucked back out of the spout fills (ideally) or part fills the delivery chamber so oil is delivered on the first push.

Clearly the relative volumes of delivery chamber and spout are important if the system is to work and pump oil out rather than just oscillate it up and down the spout. Can’t make up my mind if the system needs a delivery chamber volume of twice the spout volume or whether it will work with a smaller one.

Given that most of the common pump oil cans need a pump or two to get delivery from cold start I’m unsure how much of an operational embuggerance designed in double stroking would be. Seems to me that most of the time one pump, or part pump, is enough anyway. A partial pump ought to behave itself.

Clive

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

Cruel world that it is, I have yet to find a perfect oil can, and am of the opinion that no such thing has ever existed!  They all leak and cause some sort of mess being filled or in action.

 

I have actually done a bit of research into this recently, and come to the conclusion that old vintage oil cans are less prone to leak than the modern ones like the one in your picture. …

 

Maybe, though I suggest Survivorship Bias is a more likely explanation.  Millions of oil cans have been made since the industrial revolution, and most of them have long since been scrapped.   The few that have survived are the exception, not the rule, perhaps still existing today only because they performed unusually well.

I agree capillary action is a likely explanation, but here’s the sting!   Capillary action depends on the viscosity of the oil, and the geometry of the feed tubing, and the angle at which the can is positioned to get the nozzle into the oiler.   This creates a situation in which a lucky owner fervently believes he owns the perfect can, when actually it’s just a good match to his problem.  An unlucky owner of exactly the same can, might be equally convinced the design is rubbish.  He could be applying a different grade of oil to a different machine, or perhaps the same machine with different ball spring pressures on the oil points, and that’s enough to upset the apple cart.

Making the perfect oil can would be a good competition.  One that “just works”, no matter what grade of oil it’s filled with, and irrespective of how awkward the oiling points are.  I suspect this is an example of an engineering challenge that’s much more difficult than it first appears!

Dave

 

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

While there’s many cnc machine tools today that do use grease as there lubrication, they’ve been designed from the start to do so. There also well guarded to prevent swarf ingress and are usually on a timed greasing system. That tends to force out any of the inevitable metal particles from wear. For manual machines, it would be almost unheard of to see any machine tool manufacturer recommend grease other than maybe in some spindle bearings. I suppose there could be a few rare machines that might have used it in a few other places though. Oil and more than often enough to help flush out any swarf or contamination is what’s required for some very logical reasons. Using grease would be almost to possibly worse than using no lube at all.

 

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

I like the idea for a competition, can I add one other feature: for it to work when inverted?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The term “ATF” covers a multitude of fluids. Not all, if not most, are suitable for use in machine tool bearings. Generally they have specific lubrication and extreme pressure requirements. The additives my not be compatable with plain bearing materials. Most small lathes call up ISO 32 hydraulic oil which is not the same.

Use what the maker recommends, not what is to hand…

Robert.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

What we need is an affordable version of these:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/39976402

https://www.jensputzier.com/reilang-01.121-av-hand-push-oiler-for-low-viscosity-oils-3386.html

 

I tried using one of these, but they are made for grease and won’t seal properly:

https://en.mato.de/lubrication-equipment-mato/grease-guns/item/1925-high-pressure-push-type-grease-gun-pt300-2

 

This one looks mildly promising:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005716067368.html

 

 

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

I like your thinking, although some of those solutions are a bit pricy mind.

I’m off to check out aliexpress! I never though to check oilers in aliexpress

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

These are at least as good as anything else and better than most;

Sewing Machine Oil Bottle / Oil Can PO10

 

 

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I have both the crappy oil cans pictured in the early part of the thread.
For many applications I find the best solution to be small disposable plastic syringes except that the rubber piston while a good seal allowing plenty of pressure to bypass the ball oiler spring it weakens and pops off the piston rod so has to be extracted again for each plunge. I have been meaning to make a brass one for years.

Bear in mind that ATF and hydraulic oil were specifically developed to be THIN so they can be pumped, especially cold, around ball bearings not plain bearings. Automatic transmissions unlike plain manual gearboxes have several pumps and pistons that cannot work with ‘normal’ thick car oil. They also are pumped around a lot to provide cooling rather than lubrication. Hobby gear head lathes do not normally have oil pumps so do not need thin oil, but some of the industrial lathes are more complex.
If you don’t have a source of real machine oil Halfords and other motor factors can supply oil for vintage cars that doesn’t affect brass etc and can be used for everything (ok not clocks and sewing machines).

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Paul, your question is very dependent on who you ask on here ! A multi grade is sae 10 when cold and sae 40 when hot (85c) – how fast do you work ?  If your near me I will give you some ISO 32. Noel

[Paul McDonough]

On Paul McDonough Said:

…some of those solutions are a bit pricy mind…

I’ve been traversing the interwebs for a while without finding any. Do let us know if you find something useful. I have played with the idea of making one, but I have enough projects as it is…

 

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

Thanks for the offer, I’ll keep an eye out for iso32 never thought to ask!

I mainly started using engine oil to manage the risk of rust. All exposed iron parts get a thin coat every week.

[Paul McDonough]

On Paul McDonough Said:

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

Our small machines aren’t really going to care much what we use, as long we use some sort of lubricant.

 

I went with ATF because I had about 3l left over from a car I no longer own, and it’s similar to the recommended ISO 68 hydraulic oil. The additives won’t be used, but the red dye does show that it’s getting to where it’s needed, highlight leaks, and make the sight glasses easier to read. The lathe has been in use for about ten years without signs of distress, and if lasts another twenty years it’s likely my executors will be adding it to the clearance skip.

[Nick Wheeler]

On Nick Wheeler Said:

On Paul McDonough Said:

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

Our small machines aren’t really going to care much what we use, as long we use some sort of lubricant.

 

^^^^ This. My 1937 Drummond lathe has been lubricated with nothing but engine oil, mostly 20w-50 grade, since 1967 to my personal knowledge. (It was my dad’s old lathe). Still going strong and still a very accurate lathe with little wear to show for its abuse.

[Clive Foster]

On Clive Foster Said:

I’ve long considered that a promising solution to this problem would be to use a nozzle having a central pin to depress the ball and a recess round the outside holding an O ring to seal against the surround.

LH Sparey suggests a lo-tech solution is to take a mini hacksaw and cut a shallow slot across the end of the oilcan’s pointed nozzle. The nose of the nozzle pushes the ball in but the oil can escape out the sides through the two small slots. Never tried it myself so no idea how well it works.

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Cutting or filing a small notch in the tip works……sort of. But I’ve not had great results since it’s basically expecting a very low pressure gravity fed application to get enough oil into where it’s wanted. You not only want to oil the part, but with a bit more pressure that helps to force the contaminated oil that’s already there out. After seeing how well the one shot hand pumped oil system worked on my mill the first time I used it, that far higher pressure to inject the oil is much better. I do like Clive’s idea of the pin and O ring. I’ll have to give that some thought.

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

Interesting ideas, I too am using up engine oil I no longer use in my vehicles.

i like the O-ring with centre pin idea, keeping the O-ring captive could be a challenge

[Nick Wheeler]

On Nick Wheeler Said:

On Paul McDonough Said:

Ah… so me using W10-40 motor oil is not good then?   :0)

Our small machines aren’t really going to care much what we use, as long we use some sort of lubricant.

 

I went with ATF because I had about 3l left over from a car I no longer own, and it’s similar to the recommended ISO 68 hydraulic oil. The additives won’t be used, but the red dye does show that it’s getting to where it’s needed, highlight leaks, and make the sight glasses easier to read. The lathe has been in use for about ten years without signs of distress, and if lasts another twenty years it’s likely my executors will be adding it to the clearance skip.

Saying the additives won’t be used is misleading at best. The additives my not be required but they are present. The problem is that some additives are detrimental to certain bearing materials. Both copper alloys and “white metal” bearings can be corroded by additives. Copper corrosion is of course an issue for machines withe bronze bearings and bushes.
The SAE 32 hydraulic oil has a copper corrosion specification (ASTM D130), see https://www.mobil.co.uk/en-gb/engine-oil/mobil-1/car/nuto-h-32
Note the description mentions general anti-corrosion protection.
A random ATF datasheet (found by Google)
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/525358658A52E8738025848F0006A9FF/$File/bpxe-bgvt3z.pdf
Has no coppor corrosion test and no mention of corrosion protection. Viscosity is similar.

The wrong lubricant is unlikely to cause immediate failure in hobby applications but why run the risk to your expensive machine to save a couple of pounds on oil.

Robert.

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