Which to buy?

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

Hey there,

I'm based in EIRE and am in the market for a milling machine, I've never owned or operated a milling machine before. I have a very small woodworking shop (thickness planer, cnc router miter saw wood lathe band sae and a TON of hand tools which is where most of my work is done) and a Chinese mini lathe ( barely used because it sucks…).

I'm looking into getting into gear hobbing ( unsure of the correct term here) and wanted to buy a mill for the shop I've looked at the following shops for now:
[https://www.amadeal.co.uk/](https://www.amadeal.co.uk/)

[https://www.warco.co.uk/](https://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/303312-wm-14-milling-machine-dro.html)
[https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines](https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines)

and

[https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/machinery/milling-machines](https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/machinery/milling-machines).

​

So my question is WHICH ONE do I buy…

Max budget is around 1,500 Euros MAX MAX…

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Do you mean jobbing, or just cutting?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suspect you mean gear cutting as to do hobbing properly you really need a gear hobber, it can be approximated with home made tools but you would also need a lathe to do that.

An idea of the size (diameter and tooth size) of the gears as well as what material you want to make them from would give members a better idea of what machine to suggest.

You will almost certainly need some form or rotary table or dividing head to increment the blank around 1 tooth at a time so allow 250-300 euro for that. And easily the same again for some other basic tooling to go with the mill such as an arbor to hold the gear cutter, the cutters themselves, measuring tools to set the job up, etc.

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Welcome to the forum.

My recommendation is to look at this the other way around. If you haven't already done so, first get a copy of the Workshop Practice series book ' Gears and gear cutting '. It will cost less than a tenner from on line sources and will tell you what type of kit you need and how to use it. This may save you making an expensive mistake and buying equipment that is not fit for purpose.

Are you intending to make gears for a specific purpose?

 

Edited By Mike Hurley on 18/11/2021 10:16:49

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Welcome!

If you are going in for gear manufacture, do buy Ivan law's book on "Gears and Gear Cutting" No.17 in the "Workshop Practice Series", as Mike Hurley has already recommended.

You will find it a great help. Study it well before starting to cut metal.

If need be make your mistakes on some trial pieces, to gain experience, before embarking on the final product,

It may help to bear in mind that gear cutters are numbered in the reverse order between Imperial (DP ) gears and Metric (Module ) gears.

You are also going to need a Dividing Head or Rotary Table, (With Tailstock ) and a 4 jaw chuck to hold the mandrels on which the gear blank will be mounted for machining.., The mini lathe will come into its own to make the mandrels on which to mount the gear blank

I prefer using Division Plates on a Rotary Table, to calculating the angular divisions and setting them on the vernier scale.

Since gear cutting involves a heavy cut, although at a very slow feed rate, you will need the Tailstock to support the mandrel on which the gear blank is mounted.

This also implies that the milling machine needs to be fairly substantial and rigid, if your gears are going to be made from steel. You can do small work on a large machine, but not so easily the other way round.

A larger, heavy machine will be more rigid, so an aid to quality, so buy a little larger than you initially anticipate

New machines will be Metric, so you will need a calculator to make the settings for Imperial gears…

If you do not have it already, you will need measuring equipment to measure diameters, and to ensure that the work is held concentric in the chuck.

Howard

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Big jump from woodwork to cutting gears ! How come ?

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

Hey Everyone,

thank you so so much for the responses I'll see if I can answer them all below:

 

Posted by John Haine on 18/11/2021 07:10:26:

Do you mean jobbing, or just cutting?
John Haine

what I meant was gear cutting Idealy using a diving head and a rotary table.

——-

 

Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2021 07:14:45:

I suspect you mean gear cutting as to do hobbing properly you really need a gear hobber, it can be approximated with home made tools but you would also need a lathe to do that.

An idea of the size (diameter and tooth size) of the gears as well as what material you want to make them from would give members a better idea of what machine to suggest.

You will almost certainly need some form or rotary table or dividing head to increment the blank around 1 tooth at a time so allow 250-300 euro for that. And easily the same again for some other basic tooling to go with the mill such as an arbor to hold the gear cutter, the cutters themselves, measuring tools to set the job up, etc.

The 1500 euros was for the MILL only I did kind of realise that the tooling and rotary table would be additional on top of that .

With regards to size, they will be for small mechanical follies ( 5-10cm radius more or less) I'll be making to pass the time mainly.

—–

Posted by Mike Hurley on 18/11/2021 10:13:34:

Welcome to the forum.

My recommendation is to look at this the other way around. If you haven't already done so, first get a copy of the Workshop Practice series book ' Gears and gear cutting '. It will cost less than a tenner from on line sources and will tell you what type of kit you need and how to use it. This may save you making an expensive mistake and buying equipment that is not fit for purpose.

Are you intending to make gears for a specific purpose?

 

Edited By Mike Hurley on 18/11/2021 10:16:49

I've allready got that book and had a read through I'm kind of theoretically aware of the gear making process I'm aware I need at least a mini mill of some time ( or a second hand full sizes mill, if I could fit it in the office…) My question was more around which one of the MANY mini mills should I purchase? are there any things I should be looking out for? Are some better than others? I've kind of realised that MOST appear to be "sieg" chinese mill's except Warco from what I can see.. but there are SO many different permutations… Some come with DRO ( do I NEED this?), some with auto feed vs manual feed?  I'm just a bit lost in all honesty…

———-

Posted by Howard Lewis on 18/11/2021 16:25:58:

Welcome!

If you are going in for gear manufacture, do buy Ivan law's book on "Gears and Gear Cutting" No.17 in the "Workshop Practice Series", as Mike Hurley has already recommended.

You will find it a great help. Study it well before starting to cut metal.

If need be make your mistakes on some trial pieces, to gain experience, before embarking on the final product,

It may help to bear in mind that gear cutters are numbered in the reverse order between Imperial (DP ) gears and Metric (Module ) gears.

You are also going to need a Dividing Head or Rotary Table, (With Tailstock ) and a 4 jaw chuck to hold the mandrels on which the gear blank will be mounted for machining.., The mini lathe will come into its own to make the mandrels on which to mount the gear blank

I prefer using Division Plates on a Rotary Table, to calculating the angular divisions and setting them on the vernier scale.

Since gear cutting involves a heavy cut, although at a very slow feed rate, you will need the Tailstock to support the mandrel on which the gear blank is mounted.

This also implies that the milling machine needs to be fairly substantial and rigid, if your gears are going to be made from steel. You can do small work on a large machine, but not so easily the other way round.

A larger, heavy machine will be more rigid, so an aid to quality, so buy a little larger than you initially anticipate

New machines will be Metric, so you will need a calculator to make the settings for Imperial gears…

If you do not have it already, you will need measuring equipment to measure diameters, and to ensure that the work is held concentric in the chuck.

Howard

thanks for this info Howard!!!! with regards to

If you do not have it already, you will need measuring equipment to measure diameters, and to ensure that the work is held concentric in the chuck.

Do you have any recommendations on what I need? I assume a micrometer, a dial indicator of some type anything else to start off?

——–

1/2

 

Edited By Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 18:59:09

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

2/2

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 18/11/2021 16:36:16:

Big jump from woodwork to cutting gears ! How come ?

I'm a Tinkerer by heart I just enjoy tinkering!! I've taught myself some (bad) wood working the last couple of years ( initially hand tool then power tool), and knocked out a working ( 6 foot) waterwheel to generate some off grid power for the shop and I'm now building out the battery banks with 18650 cell's. I've also just taught myself some (bad) timber framing and I'm currently timber framing a new conservatory for the house which is coming along nicely!

I'm a Javascript programmer by trade and the act of "constructing" things fascinates me from code to physical items…

Anyway long story short I have a small chinese mini mill and X-mas is coming up so wanted to gift myself a little mill, and I need an excuse so learning about GEARS is my excuse reason

thanks to everyone so much for being so welcoming and asking / answering a load of questions!

Chris

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 18:55:30:

With regards to size, they will be for small mechanical follies ( 5-10cm radius more or less) I'll be making to pass the time mainly.

if you do indeed mean radius rather than diameter then you will struggle with the smaller mills. certainly a (mini-mill) won't do it and even the Sx2P sized machine will struggle This is because you can't bring the table far enough forwards to get the cutter into the right position behind the gear blank.

Even the next sizes up like the SX2.7 and SX3 size machines will be hard pushed to accomodate a 200mm dia gear and rotary tables for that size will be a lot more than the figure I mentioned earlier, you could possibly get away with a 6" rotary table packed up but front to back movement may still not be enough.

A DRO is nice to have but may be more economical to buy separately and fit yourself. Power feed less so

As for measuring tools a half decent 150mmdigital calliper will do to start with and cover most of the gear sizes you are thinking of. Dial test indicator and a magnetic base will get your work and th rotary table set true and an edged finder to locate the work

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2021 19:21:57:

Posted by Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 18:55:30:

With regards to size, they will be for small mechanical follies ( 5-10cm radius more or less) I'll be making to pass the time mainly.

if you do indeed mean radius rather than diameter then you will struggle with the smaller mills. certainly a (mini-mill) won't do it and even the Sx2P sized machine will struggle This is because you can't bring the table far enough forwards to get the cutter into the right position behind the gear blank.

Even the next sizes up like the SX2.7 and SX3 size machines will be hard pushed to accomodate a 200mm dia gear and rotary tables for that size will be a lot more than the figure I mentioned earlier, you could possibly get away with a 6" rotary table packed up but front to back movement may still not be enough.

A DRO is nice to have but may be more economical to buy separately and fit yourself. Power feed less so

As for measuring tools a half decent 150mmdigital calliper will do to start with and cover most of the gear sizes you are thinking of. Dial test indicator and a magnetic base will get your work and th rotary table set true and an edged finder to locate the work

Ok so measuring tools:

• Dial test inidicator
• Digital Caliper ( I own!)
• Edge finder

Is that right? Anything else?

By "hard pushed" are we talking impossible or just I'm going to find it HARD?? 200mm DIA will be the largest I'll ever go ( for now at least)…

Thanks again!

Chris

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 00:16:47:

[…]

and a Chinese mini lathe ( barely used because it sucks…).

[…]

.

Dare I suggest that you might convert your sucking Chinese mini lathe into a wheel-cutting engine ?

Have a look at J. Malcom Wild’s masterwork for inspiration : **LINK**

http://www.j-m-w.co.uk/contact.html

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That's the very minimum I think you could probably get away with.

I think close to almost impossible on a generic Mini-mill sized machine. It is not just the large diameter of the gears but also think about the size of the teeth. Unless you want to cut several hundred small say MOD1 size teeth around those big diameter gears then you will need to use cutters that produce a larger tooth and they need more power and rigidity in the machine which you won't get on the smaller ones.

You have not said what material you will be using for these gears, if something like birch ply or a plasticic then that will be a lot easier to cut than metal.

I'll mock something up on an SX2.7 tomorrow to give you an idea of the size that could cope with but won't be until late afternoon.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 20:26:46:

By "hard pushed" are we talking impossible or just I'm going to find it HARD??

Neither, but it will be tricky. it is normal to cut gears (at least in ME sizes) in one pass per tooth space. That means the cutter is working on a long mean path. So machine rigidity is your friend. With a 200mm diameter gear on a vertical mill the cutter will be sticking out about 100mm. That is an open invitation to chatter, which will get worse as the number of teeth get smaller and hence the spaces get bigger. What DP or Mod will be the largest you'll cut?

Of course gear cutting can be done on a vertical mill but it can be problematic. For manual spur gear cutting I prefer a horizontal mill. Far more rigid than a vertical mill and the arbor is supported at both ends:

Total cost of the setup above was less than half the stated budget, including a universal dividing head not shown above.

Andrew

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

Excuse my ignorance but I'm really not sure what I'm seeing here

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 18/11/2021 20:39:58:

Posted by Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 00:16:47:

[…]

and a Chinese mini lathe ( barely used because it sucks…).

[…]

.

Dare I suggest that you might convert your sucking Chinese mini lathe into a wheel-cutting engine ?

Have a look at J. Malcom Wild’s masterwork for inspiration : **LINK**

http://www.j-m-w.co.uk/contact.html

MichaelG.

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

thank you so much for the mock up and ALL the advice!!!

Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2021 20:41:59:

That's the very minimum I think you could probably get away with.

I think close to almost impossible on a generic Mini-mill sized machine. It is not just the large diameter of the gears but also think about the size of the teeth. Unless you want to cut several hundred small say MOD1 size teeth around those big diameter gears then you will need to use cutters that produce a larger tooth and they need more power and rigidity in the machine which you won't get on the smaller ones.

You have not said what material you will be using for these gears, if something like birch ply or a plasticic then that will be a lot easier to cut than metal.

I'll mock something up on an SX2.7 tomorrow to give you an idea of the size that could cope with but won't be until late afternoon.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

To make further comments more useful can you confirm what material(s) you will be making these gears from and also the likely tooth count for example your average size gear is 150mm diameter will you want 50T or 150T on that as there is a lot of difference cutting 3MOD to 1MOD (8DP vs 24DP).

If they are not going to be metal and the larger 3MOD teeth will suit then I would consider using your CNC router, roughing out with a 6mm cutter then refining the teeth with a much smaller one. Just mount the board/sheet flat on the table and let the router cut the teeth.

Edited By JasonB on 19/11/2021 07:22:42

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 19/11/2021 07:21:03:

To make further comments more useful can you confirm what material(s) you will be making these gears from and also the likely tooth count for example your average size gear is 150mm diameter will you want 50T or 150T on that as there is a lot of difference cutting 3MOD to 1MOD (8DP vs 24DP).

[…]

.

… Just realised that I had made an unjustified assumption when suggesting conversion of the lathe

At those diameters, it would never enter my head to try cutting coarse gears in difficult materials on a ‘mini’ machine.

… I was thinking of clock wheels in brass

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Plus the OP would probably need a mill to make the wheel cutting machine

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Just to say that if you want to make larger gears for "small mechanical follies" then you could consider using CNC. Small gantry CNC routers are not too expensive and the better ones have ballscrews etc for better precision. You can make quite large gears up to the max size of the router table and down to whatever the precision of the machine permits by profiling them out of flat material using small milling cutters. There are quite a few links on the web to people making wooden clocks who use this approach. The main limitation is that the smallest practical cutters are ~1mm which limits the minimum gear module to a bit over M1.

The g-code to drive the machine can be generated by free or quite low-cost CAD/CAM software. For example, this web page: **LINK** * – will generate the dxf file for a cycloidal wheel and pinion; and this: **LINK** – can convert the dxf to g-code. Or you spend a little money and get a general purpose CAD/CAM package like CamBam that can do the dxf-gcode bit and also allow you to do involute gears and design other bits. There's lots of other free CAD packages – look at recent threads here for more information.

*Security concerns have been expressed about this as it uses WebGL but these may be overplayed – anyway with your background you will be in a good position to judge.

I'm in the process of learning to make gears using these methods albeit on a conventional CNC mill.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Haine on 19/11/2021 10:01:59:

[…]

For example, this web page: **LINK** * – will generate the dxf file for a cycloidal wheel and pinion

[…]

*Security concerns have been expressed about this as it uses WebGL but these may be overplayed – anyway with your background you will be in a good position to judge.

Ah, yes … I remember it well

… and his response was exemplary.

MichaelG.

[Christopher ChurchillParticipant @christopherchurchill11285]

With regards to this question:

To make further comments more useful can you confirm what material(s) you will be making these gears from and also the likely tooth count for example your average size gear is 150mm diameter will you want 50T or 150T on that as there is a lot of difference cutting 3MOD to 1MOD (8DP vs 24DP).

I planned on using the mill for metal gears ( brass / steel / aluminum) I can already create gears on the cnc router with little issue in ply or delrin. Regarding tooth count I hadn't really considered specifics just diameter / radius and kind of general size, so I assume I'd want something that is going to allow me to create "average" tooth count gears./

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

10 to 80 teeth, module 1.2 to 1.3. steel & brass

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Haine on 19/11/2021 11:49:15:

10 to 80 teeth, module 1.2 to 1.3. steel & brass

How do you get that with the OP wanting gears of 100 -200mm dia That is going to need 2.5Mod for 80T on the 200mm dia which is a considerably bigger bite to expect a minimill to take.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

If you look at used mills and a round column vertical mill is available do not dismiss it out of hand. The ability to rotate the head around the column allows the spindle to be further away from the table centreline for larger diameter gears.

For example if you had a Ø70 cutter and a Ø100 gear blank you need at least 85mm between the spindle centre line and the dividing head centre line. With a square column mill this may be hard to achieve without having the rotary table hanging over the edge of the table.

Martin C

[Author]

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