Which material spec’s for boilers ?

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

I have been asked to make a boiler for a friend. Whilst being a reasonably competent 'basher' I have not made one before. I'm trawling the web for construction notes and would also like to have readers' opinions/preferences on the best grades of copper to use, which silver solder etc., in other words a note of pitfalls to avoid, and hints leading to easier working and best results. I'm waiting for a view of the drawings so this is a very general initial enquiry. More specific requests for advice may arise later.

Be assured I do realise that a boiler is potentially a bomb and so this is not something I will undertake lightly. Naturally the result will be subject to all the essential official testing required, but I'd much prefer to 'pass first time'.

All help gratefully received, thanks,

Ken.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

C106 copper

Ken, is this a freeby for a friend or as part of your business as if you are getting paid for it then you get into a grey area of a prof made one. Best check with whoever will be signing teh cert what they will be happy with

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Hello Jason,

Thanks for the Cu spec. At present this is just an enquiry as to whether I could make a boiler for someone. If I did it would be as a paid job, but I'm looking into it to decide whether it is something I would wish to undertake. At the moment I know nothing about the certification process, but obviously need to learn how it works, in the same way I'm sure there are 'best practices' to take on board. I'm approaching the subject warily, and may yet decided 'Thanks, but no thanks'.

I appreciate your input,

Regards,

Ken

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

steer clear of leaded bronze for bushes. It can be silver soldered, but is not recommended in BS. Colphos is a good alternative, much easier to drill than drawn phos bronze.

If you can get hold of a copy of the Australian model boiler code it is very helpful. Don't believe all the rubbish people say about it, it is a very sensible document.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

AMBSC code allows LG2 and that is what I and fellow club members use for boiler bushes. What is the supposed problem with it ?

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Ken,

Your work on here has been excellent, but if you have never made a copper silver soldered boiler before then I would echo Jason's comments that to enter the world of professional boiler makers requires a great deal of practice experience and skill, plus CE marks etc.

I do not think your first boiler build should be a contract job for a punter.

Just an amateur boiler maker here with no axe to grind!

Cheers,

Julian

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by duncan webster on 31/07/2016 17:26:42:

steer clear of leaded bronze for bushes. It can be silver soldered, but is not recommended in BS. Colphos is a good alternative, much easier to drill than drawn phos bronze.

Colphos 90 contains lead. Are there other versions?

Rod

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

The Australian code for boilers is available at **LINK**

It specifies the requirements for amateurs to build a safe boiler. The boiler still has to be certified by an approved inspector. Note that you will be building a potential bomb and you could be held responsible for any damages or injuries if it should explode.

Paul.

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Isn't it peculiar how a seemingly straightforward enquiry can produce diametrically opposed views from people who are doing the same things ? Fascinating and all good stuff, keep it coming chaps.

Yes Paul, I believe I acknowledged the 'bomb' potential and the need for certification in my first entry, but you raise a valid point about liability, and hence the possible need for insurance cover. Do other modellers, making boilers only for themselves, take out such insurance (after all, bystanders cold be hurt wherever steaming) ? Or is there compulsory club/association coverage as with R.C. model aircraft via the BBMA/LMA ?

I'll study the Australian code, but why has it apparently been dismissed in some quarters ?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 31/07/2016 22:34:09:

Posted by duncan webster on 31/07/2016 17:26:42:

steer clear of leaded bronze for bushes. It can be silver soldered, but is not recommended in BS. Colphos is a good alternative, much easier to drill than drawn phos bronze.

Colphos 90 contains lead. Are there other versions?

Rod

It's all a matter of how much lead. PB1A or whatever they call it nowadays was I see to recall 7% lead, and the BS did not recommend silver soldering it. Colphos is 4%, and the manufacturers claim it is OK for silver solder, they should know. I've used it in a couple of boilers successfully, although I did have one bush split longways.

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Hi Ken,

I belong to a model club which covers me for insurance for my model engine. A friend with a full size engine has to take out his own insurance. Best to check with whoever is going to test and certify the boiler as to what requirements are needed. The inspector will probably want to see certificates for the materials used and check the construction at various stages of construction.

Paul.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 01/08/2016 00:28:34:

Isn't it peculiar how a seemingly straightforward enquiry can produce diametrically opposed views from people who are doing the same things ? Fascinating and all good stuff, keep it coming chaps.

Yes Paul, I believe I acknowledged the 'bomb' potential and the need for certification in my first entry, but you raise a valid point about liability, and hence the possible need for insurance cover. Do other modellers, making boilers only for themselves, take out such insurance (after all, bystanders cold be hurt wherever steaming) ? Or is there compulsory club/association coverage as with R.C. model aircraft via the BBMA/LMA ?

I'll study the Australian code, but why has it apparently been dismissed in some quarters ?

The Australian code produces a boiler capable of containing a tactical nuclear weapon, but it is about construction not the audit trail you will need to follow to build a CE marked boiler.

UK Pressure Vessel Regulations

You will need to follow various links as well. This does not tell you how to make a boiler, it tells you how to comply with the regulations.

Note:

"If tried in a Magistrates Court, the maximum penalty for contravening the Pressure Equipment Regulations is currently a fine of £5,000 or, in some cases, imprisonment for up to three months, or both."

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

To address the first question, those people building boilers for their own use are NOT covered by those rules, but they do have to satisfy a boiler inspector if their boiler is to be insurable and therefore usable in a public place.

Neil

[ken king, King DesignParticipant @kenkingkingdesign]

Thanks for all inputs so far. If I understand Neil correctly there are different requirements for a commercially produced boiler i.e. one made for money, as opposed to one built by an enthusiast for his own use. Can anyone enlarge on that? I think I'm close to turning this request down, not for concerns about the manufacturing of it, but because the certification/insurance process is beginning to look like a major complication too far. For my own information I'd still like to learn more of the inspection and insurance requirements. For that probably my next step should be to contact my nearest live steam club, talk to some members, and collect info from the chaps who've actually done it all. Any other suggestions ?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 01/08/2016 09:48:45:

Thanks for all inputs so far. If I understand Neil correctly there are different requirements for a commercially produced boiler i.e. one made for money, as opposed to one built by an enthusiast for his own use. Can anyone enlarge on that?

.

Ken,

I know next-to-nothing about boiler-making, but the legal principles are entirely reasonable and comprehensible.

1. What you do alone and in private is generally [i.e. Unless there is specific legislation] considered to be none of anyone else's concern.
2. If you, as an individual, endanger or harm another, or their property, you are liable under common law
3. If your business endangers or harms another [including you as individual] it is liable under Health & Safety legislation, etc.

That's a basic 'Plain English' summary …

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As a PostScript to my previous comment:

The Codes, the Inspections and Certificates, and the Insurance are all to do with the 'transfer of Risk'.

MichaelG.

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

The Pressure Equipment Regs aren't all that difficult, but writing something appropriate for every Essential Safety Requirement can be a chore, especially if you aren't used to the language used. The Technical File produced is a means of demonstrating that your design and build approach is sensible.

It is quite easy to get caught out on materials certification, you need certificates from either the manufacturer of the material, or an independent test house (even then there are points which can still catch you out). A certificate produced by material distributor is not acceptable.

Now if the boiler is small enough and low enough pressure, there is no requirement to involve a Notified Body in the certification process – so nobody to check your Technical File (unless there is an incident later).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by ken king, King Design on 01/08/2016 09:48:45:

Thanks for all inputs so far. If I understand Neil correctly there are different requirements for a commercially produced boiler i.e. one made for money, as opposed to one built by an enthusiast for his own use. Can anyone enlarge on that? I think I'm close to turning this request down, not for concerns about the manufacturing of it, but because the certification/insurance process is beginning to look like a major complication too far. For my own information I'd still like to learn more of the inspection and insurance requirements. For that probably my next step should be to contact my nearest live steam club, talk to some members, and collect info from the chaps who've actually done it all. Any other suggestions ?

Just to confirm, yes. I would guess the traceability, certification and record holding requirements are as much a reason for the high cost of commercial boilers as the cost of copper.

Neil

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

As far as I understand the current regulations if you are producing a commercial boiler which is to be used in a public place in the UK it must carry the CE mark. Failure to have this will invalidate any insurance. If I ask a friend to weld one of my boilers and he does this for free then all well and good, if he gets any payment for it in any form whatsoever it then becomes a commercial transaction and unless it has a CE cert wont be allowed to run – minefield! My advise would be to steer well clear unless you are very good at lining up ducks!

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

This is an interesting discussion. It seems to me that someone making boilers as a commercial undertaking does so from start to finish, including pressure testing, and provides a boiler certificate underwritten by themselves. This then involves all the associated paperwork that allows them to shoulder the risk with their own commercial insurance.

If, however, the manufacturer goes down the club route then the club undertakes the inspection of the boiler at whatever stages of manufacture they deem appropriate and once satisfied, after testing, will issue a certificate that enables the boiler to be used under the club insurance. It makes no difference whether the manufacturer has been paid or not – the boiler has been inspected and passed by a responsible third party and no material traceability is required. After all, home made boilers are bought and sold, with certificates, on the open market.

Or does it not work like that?

Rod

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As I understand it as soon as a new boiler is placed into the open market (eg charged for) it becomes a commercial boiler and needs to meet CE etc.

I wonder how many club inspectors would just test a boiler for a commercial maker?

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Rod "It makes no difference whether the manufacturer has been paid or not – the boiler has been inspected and passed by a responsible third party and no material traceability is required" It does make a difference in so far as the testing regimen being different for any boiler deemed 'commercial'. If you can get your club inspector to overlook that aspect of the SF rule book then all the better. I am completely with you, if it passes it passes and it really shouldn't matter who or why they undertook the work (welding of steel boilers is my personal gripe) but rules is rules, nonsense or not.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

This appears to be the boiler testing code for the UK **LINK**

A commercially made boiler isn't defined but the code seems to assume that it is presented to the boiler inspector as a completed item. If Ken's friend were to turn up with a partially completed boiler so that the joints could be inspected and then return with the completed boiler ready for testing would that be a commercial boiler? Who would know who built it? Is it the mere fact that money has changed hands that is important or is it that a commercial boiler is assumed to have already undergone some testing, as demonstrated by the CE mark?

Rod

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Trying to circumvent the rules is a non starter, if something does go wrong any insurance would probably be invalidated (you wouldn't get insurance for anything again either), plus anyone involved could face financially cripling personal liability and maybe even prosecution.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 01/08/2016 19:09:47

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