WHICH LATHE AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO A MYFORD PLEASE.

[Billy BeanParticipant @billybean67480]

David

Sorry do not understand – can you explain by PM please

Noting the relevant size of the double wall socket to your Unimat, it is going to be a revelation to you, even if you only go up to a 7×19 sized lathe

The picture is of the small workshop just for little jobs at my house we are laeving.

The new workshop at the new house is 30 feet by 20 feet so I will be ok for space.

BB

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

Posted by Billy Bean on 20/02/2018 17:32:25:

The new workshop at the new house is 30 feet by 20 feet so I will be ok for space.

BB

Workshop 30' x 20' and dosh to spend on all sorts of new goodies…. Now I am just plain jealous

Good luck with the move, hope it isn't too traumatic.

John

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Billy Bean on 20/02/2018 17:32:25:

David

Sorry do not understand – can you explain by PM please

Noting the relevant size of the double wall socket to your Unimat, it is going to be a revelation to you, even if you only go up to a 7×19 sized lathe

The picture is of the small workshop just for little jobs at my house we are laeving.

The new workshop at the new house is 30 feet by 20 feet so I will be ok for space.

BB

Billy

PM not necessary, nothing contentious .

What I meant was that the relative size of the wall socket reminds you of how small a Unimat is, so even if you only go up to a Myford sized lathe (7×19, i.e. 7" swing by 19" between centres), a whole new world of capabilities will open up for you

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Billy Bean on 20/02/2018 17:32:25:

David

Sorry do not understand – can you explain by PM please

Noting the relevant size of the double wall socket to your Unimat, it is going to be a revelation to you, even if you only go up to a 7×19 sized lathe

The picture is of the small workshop just for little jobs at my house we are laeving.

The new workshop at the new house is 30 feet by 20 feet so I will be ok for space.

BB

I think he just twigged how tiny the Unimat 3 is.

I had one for years, and built my Stuart 10V on it.

I didn't think I'd ever want such a small machine again, but have actually since bought a Sieg C0 (which is a slightly less well-made but still very usable Unimat 3 clone) for small components and jewellery.

So think about hanging onto the Unimat.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Mick B1 on 20/02/2018 17:41:52:

Posted by Billy Bean on 20/02/2018 17:32:25:

David

Sorry do not understand – can you explain by PM please

 

Noting the relevant size of the double wall socket to your Unimat, it is going to be a revelation to you, even if you only go up to a 7×19 sized lathe

 

The picture is of the small workshop just for little jobs at my house we are laeving.

The new workshop at the new house is 30 feet by 20 feet so I will be ok for space.

BB

 

 

I think he just twigged how tiny the Unimat 3 is.

I had one for years, and built my Stuart 10V on it.

I didn't think I'd ever want such a small machine again, but have actually since bought a Sieg C0 (which is a slightly less well-made but still very usable Unimat 3 clone) for small components and jewellery.

So think about hanging onto the Unimat.

 

 

Mick

Correctamundo! 

 

 

Edited By David Standing 1 on 20/02/2018 17:43:29

[Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114]

Make sure whatever you get has an adequate spindle bore, I have only once or twice wanted more than the 30.5mm of my Super 7's new head but once I extend my workshop I will probably look for something with a little more through capacity.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

A year ago I would have suggested a good second hand Boxford AUD.

Having had six months with an SC4-510 for Arc, I would say it's a very good lathe, a bit bigger than a Myford (4" centre height by about 20" between centres, similar weight) but very modern and 'feature rich' – power cross feed, t-slotted cross and top slides, built in tacho, micrometer dial on saddle handwheel, QR tailstoick, full set of changewheels including a 127 for imperial threads. It also has variable speed 1kW (>1hp motor) and a hardened double inverted-vee bed.

I have to declare an interest in that the lathe is part of a sponsorship deal for a series on lathework BUT having used it a fair bit now I am very impressed by its accuracy and performance. Only niggles so far are that the micrometer dials are very tight as supplied, I had to remove them, flatten the springs a little, and now they are silky smooth.

It will leave you with change out of £1500 but feels like much more than a pair of mini lathes.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/02/2018 19:28:07:

Having had six months with an SC4-510 for Arc, I would say it's a very good lathe,

[ … ] full set of changewheels including a 127 for imperial threads.

.

I would have expected you to reject that on principle, Neil

MichaelG.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The Myfords do seem to be getting over-priced for what they are, in particular the Super 7/Connoiseur. It's the same here in Australia. Cheaper to buy a Hercus clone of the South Bend, which is a slightly larger and much more robust machine. The UK equivalent would be a Boxford I guess, which seem to be cheaper to buy than a Myford due to the lack of cult following.

And Neil's SC4 seems to be a good deal for a lathe of that size. It's brand new with a warranty and all that. Buying a used lathe is just like buying a used car. You had better know what you are looking at, or you could easily end up with a lemon. Would you buy a 30-year-old (or more) used car? Would you expect it to work as well as a brand new one, right from scratch?

In the end it's a personal choice really, and depends a lot on what your experience levels are, what you want out of the machine and what your budget is. If you can afford 8k for a new Myford, it might be a good investment. Their prices seem to be going up and up. But it's a large chunk of cash to have tied up in one lathe. Again, depends on your budget. Mine is more limited than that.

My personal choice, if I were in the UK and looking for a model engineer's lathe would probably be a good used Boxford. But I have the experience to tell a good 'un from a bad 'un. And I'd be having a good look at that SC4. Nice to be able to see one in action and twiddle the knobs yourself though. And check the change gears and/or drive gears are not horribly noisy as I've seen on some new lathes. Would be enough to drive me crazy (or wear earplugs). But that's just me.

Edited By Hopper on 21/02/2018 03:22:44

Edited By Hopper on 21/02/2018 03:23:49

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/02/2018 23:08:02:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 20/02/2018 19:28:07:

Having had six months with an SC4-510 for Arc, I would say it's a very good lathe,

[ … ] full set of changewheels including a 127 for imperial threads.

.

I would have expected you to reject that on principle, Neil

MichaelG.

There's something nice about having such a huge changewheel!

The scary thing is how a metric lathe encourages you to work in metric (the mini lathe has 0.025mm graduations and is effectively bilingual, the SC4 uses 0.02mm).

Neil

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

But is the lathe sufficiently accurate/precise to be able to tell the difference between a metric pitch made using the 127 t wheel and an approximation?

[Roger BParticipant @rogerb61624]

As a 'left field' alternative I would suggest you look at the Proxxon PD 400

**LINK**

Best regards

Roger

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

From the prices I'v seen for Myford lathes it's like paying UK  L20,000 for a Morris Minor in as is condition.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 21/02/2018 09:07:01

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I have bought a few Proxxon things and been singularly unimpressed, and have seen very poor reports on this and other forums about their lathes which seem to be based on the usual Far East platforms. And the price for the one linked above is absurd IMHO when you see what you can get from Arc / Sieg.

[norm nortonParticipant @normnorton75434]

"Which machine should I buy" threads always produce a good response, and can be interesting for those of us who have 'settled' with workshop machinery choices as well as for those with new decisions to make. Hopefully, Billy has had a few helpful tips.

I fully understand the natural love for a new Myford, but agree with the general view that Billy is going to be better off with a new lathe like the Seig SC4-510 PLUS a table top mill the size of a Seig SX3 or bigger, and then use the money still saved from £8,000 to buy the inevitable large pile of machine tooling. If anyone else wants a Myford then pay the £3,500 or so for a S7 with gearbox that has just been reground and refurbished by a specialist.

That SC4 lathe from ARC seems to have a very good spec as a starter lathe, and if Neil likes it then that's a recommendation. But what none of us can tell from specifications is how rigid a machine is. Rigidity affects the cuts taken and the accuracy. A flexing top slide will upset any attempt at parting off. Older, worn machines will also vibrate despite the gibs trying to grip the curved slide ways – hence a new 'Far Eastern" will cut better than a 'worn-out Myford'.

Parting off with a wide HSS tip into a big bar of stringy EN3 at speed has got to be a nice overall machine test of rigidity. Carbide tips are no better for hobby parting and seem to be a fashion trend.

Perhaps one specification is a useful guide and that is the machine's weight. A 750kg older Harrison lathe is a vastly different machine from a 100kg Myford S7 and Seig SC4. Weight is even more important on a milling machine where tool to work distance through the frame is much longer. I wonder what some of these smaller mills are really able to cut.

Norm

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

I was thinking that too – buying used potentially gets you so much more iron and rigidity for your money, at the expense of some uinknown amount of wear. So for lathes you're looking at e.g. 2.6 tons of S&B 1024 for £1800 (before haggling, but not including transport costs) vs 95 kg for £1500ish inc carriage (Arc SC4).

Personally having used heavier machines I'd tend that way every time, if space permits… but I can also see the argument for buying smaller and new.

No connection with the S&B seller BTW, or knowledge of its condition beyond what's in the ad – it just came up on a search just now when I was looking for an example.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

How fortunate Billy is to be setting up a new workshop with plenty of space! However, every silver lining comes with a cloud, in this case discovering that choosing a lathe can get complicated. Especially when it turns out you need a milling machine as well!

There are several considerations, and I would advise newcomers to start by collecting their ideas first. Write a list. Advice on the forum is good but beware you ask the right questions – what matters to Billy may not matter to me and vice versa. Like Billy suddenly mentioning he has trouble with weights.

Key things to clarify before parting with money:

• What are you going to use the lathe for? (Clocks or locomotive Axles?)
• Most important, what are your constraints?
  • Budget, including costs of stand, tooling, accessories, electrics, delivery, installation and materials. (Installation might involve paying a professional team to move a heavy lathe into a cellar, or buying an engine crane, or perhaps you can do it for free.)
  • Your experience and ability to cope. (Newcomers are advised to keep it simple.)
  • Space
  • Access to that space. (2 ton lathe in the loft; live 5 miles down a muddy lane; steps? )
  • Power (Shed at the end of a garden; 3-phase; > 13A etc.)
  • Noise and other impacts on your domestic situation
  • Your feelings buying new vs second-hand or Western vs Far Eastern and how much those feelings matter to you. Be aware when taking advice that feelings and logic are not the same thing.
  • Tooling: for example, if you particularly want to use carbide inserts a modern lathe is a better bet simply because they tend to spin faster. On the other hand, older lathes may come with hard to find accessories, such as a taper turning attachment. Do you have any special tool requirements?

Normally I would advise buying the biggest lathe that can be accommodated. Partly because bigger lathes handle bigger work, partly because interests expand to fit the lathe, but mostly – in my case – because having more room makes work easier to set up. Generally a big lathe can handle small work, but a small lathe cannot handle big work, and you end up pushing the thing to it's limits. In Billy's case, he particularly mentions weight as a problem. That might mean chuck weight is his showstopper: a 100mm diameter chuck weighs about 3kg, 120mm about 5kg and 160mm about 10kg. There may be other issues with big lathes; they take up space, you have to stand at them, and they're comparatively hot and noisy.

Last on my list is Make and Model Number. With older kit condition matters far more than brand. With new kit, warm feelings provided by Make and Model number may be misplaced. It's not obvious these days who made the lathe and there can be significant variation between similar models. In the UK, hobby lathes are bought from badge distributors, not manufacturers. Distributors can and do change supplier. You're far better off looking at what they have on offer and deciding who has the better reputation for support. That can vary over time. Personally I've had good results from Warco and ArcEuroTrade; Axminster get a good press but are a little more expensive; that includes an extended warranty. As far as I know none of the UK Distributors are cowboys though some have been reported to be less sympathetic than others if there's a problem.

I recommend reading Neil's current series on lathes in Model Engineering Workshop. (Also Jason's parallel series on Milling Machines.) There's also a lathe series running in Model Engineer. I feel the ME series is Myford centric and for that reason a little old-fashioned. Neil is much more up-to-date and writes about an interesting modern lathe that you can buy new today.

Compared with a Myford Super 7, the Warco 250 is about the same size and capability. A 280 is like a 250 but bigger; it's about as big as I can fit in a cluttered single-garage sized workshop. No problem running it off a standard 13A plug. Next size up takes you into gear-head lathes which come with more time saving conveniences, but you have to start looking even more carefully at weight and power requirements.

What's wrong with Myford? Nothing much, a very successful and well-proven design. Unfortunately for both good and bad reasons they attract premium prices. For less money you can get even better quality kit like a second-hand Boxford or a new machine with warranty.

Hope that helps. I don't think you would go far wrong with a WM250 or an SC4. One last thing; buying a lathe used to be a once in a lifetime experience because they were expensive compared with income. That's not really true of hobby lathes today – many could realistically consider buying a £2000 lathe and replacing it after a few years. More expensive than a washing machine but cheaper than a car and definitely not an heirloom!

Dave

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by norm norton on 21/02/2018 10:44:02:

That SC4 lathe from ARC seems to have a very good spec as a starter lathe, and if Neil likes it then that's a recommendation. But what none of us can tell from specifications is how rigid a machine is.

I can say that it's a lot more rigid than a mini lathe, strangely this makes it a bit less forgiving.

Weight comparison is interesting (although it is far from the whole story):

• Mini-lathe 40kg
• Proxxon PD400 45kg
• SC4 95kg
• S7 111kg

(I'd venture to suggest a bit of the extra weight in the S7 is the motor/back gear (compared to the more compact brushless motor arrangement).

Parting under power cross feed with carbide tools is a revelation, but a bit scary at first! I rapidly discovered that with aluminium alloys and coated tips you need a constant supply of cutting oil to stop build up on the tip.

Hopper mentioned noisy headstock gears. Early SC4s had a reputation for this, but I can't say that mine is a noisy machine.

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 21/02/2018 11:32:16

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

I work a lot in aluminium and I suffer from a build up of material on the tips lots of lubricant helps. For my Arc grooving tool I have found some tips specially for aluminium a lot better than the general purpose ones, from Apt only downside is they come in boxes of 10

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/02/2018 11:24:57:

Hopper mentioned noisy headstock gears. Early SC4s had a reputation for this, but I can't say that mine is a noisy machine.

Neil

With that concern out of the way, the SC4 is looking (sounding) pretty good then. At the price, for a beginner who may not be able to tell a good used Myford/Boxford/Hardinge/etc from a bad one, it would be hard to beat. Certainly leaves a LOT of money for equipping the rest of the workshop versus the price of a new Myford Connoisseur. I'd be looking at an SX3 mill while I was there. Plus rotary table, vice, etc etc. A guy could have a lot of fun in the candy store with 8k.

ON the other hand, a brand new Myford would be pretty nice if money were no object.

Edited By Hopper on 21/02/2018 12:30:41

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Yes i'd go for the SC4, like neil said, it's bonus is that it's a feature rich lathe.

It's a comparable weight to my own machine and has 70mm or so more distance between centres. The centre height isn't quite as much but that isn't really a bad thing when you consider just how much it comes with. Very up to date features and swanky looking to boot.

If I was looking at a new machine this would be high on the list.

Michael W

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

With that budget I would look for a really good used Harrison, or a Colchester Bantam. 3 to 4 grand should get you a top flight one with lots of tooling.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Fourteen or fifteen years ago, a new Myford Super 7 Sigma, with chucks and steadies was going to set me back nearly £8K For a quarter of that I got a Far Eastern brother/sister of the Warco BH600 /Chester Craftsman, with VFD, weighing 300Kg, with the same or slightly larger, chucks, and a 5MT spindle bore instead of 4MT With a very brief clean up and level, it was "Plug and Play" The only problems that have developed have either been minor, and easily solved, or of my own making. Accuracy? First time round, it will produce parts that "pop" when you pull the shaft out of the bore. It's not a Tool Room lathe, nor intended to be used 40 hours a week; but that wasn't what I paid for, and so far it has done all that I have wanted within it's capacity, (which is probably more than I will ever require).

Certainly, I would not have expected the minor problems, if i had bought the S7Sigma, and been VERY upset if I had. But I bought a Ford, not a Bentley.

The predecessor was a ML7, sold because it did not seem rigid enough, and the 2MT spindle bore was too restrictive. A Myford is more beautifully finished than my BL12-24, but I wanted a machine tool, not a showroom piece. High gloss paint does not necessarily guarantee higher precision.

A lot of extremely good work has been done on old ML7s and their forebears.

You pays your money and makes your choice. If a £5 note under the table leg does not stop it rocking, a £20 one probably won't either.

The essentials are: The machine does what you require, and that you are happy with it, (unless yo enjoy changing machines every couple of years).

If you choose go for a used machine, take someone with you to check it over for wear or damage.

Howard

[Frederic FrenereParticipant @fredericfrenere44328]

Money is no object? I buy a Cazaneuve. In the real world, the V10P Maximat has served my family well and is as old as I.
Fred.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The Myford was designed as the only machine a modeller would need, a wide range of accessories was available to enable many operations that would normally need other machines. The availability of affordable milling machines and accessories for dividing etc. mean that a lathe now only has to do lathe tasks and the need for the ultimate multi tool is diminished. It may be worth considering where you want to be with a lathe and a milling machine and basing your decision on that. It is still a nice lathe though and nice to buy British as they said in the seventies.

Mike

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