WHERE ARE THE SHAPER USERS ?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

IanT

A most excellent article. Thank you very much. Especially as one picture shows exactly how to make a part that I'll need sometime in the near future for a repair job. Although I'd sort of worked out how to do it seeing the proper way to do the job and reading the article ha saved me from running into trouble from a couple of devilish details.

Clive

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

There is another technique for doing large radius arcs of a circle on a shaper. It uses a supplementary table, pivoted at one side of the main table, and constrained to tilt by an angled guide bar. I built one, based on a special vice for a planer described in an old book, and used it to make expansion links for my steam launch engine. I wrote an article for Model Engineer some years back, it can be found at:

Year 2005

Volume 194

Issue 4247

Page 569

John Olsen (New Zealand)

Cutting Curves on the Shaping Machine

A novel attachment

The curve cut is not actually a precise arc of a circle, but it is close enough for all practical purposes. The radius can be anything up to infinity, but there is a limit to how small it can be depending on the size of the supplementary table and the machine. Smaller radii would be better done on a lathe. The ones I did for my expansion links would be about 6 inches or so radius, somewhat larger than I could do on the Myford.

The shaping between centres technique, as shown in the Popular Mechanics article, is a very useful one when you need something to have a partly round shape. I have used this to produce eccentric straps, where they have a half round shape but the ears for the screws stick out so they can't be turned on the lathe. Ammco used to make an attachment for their six inch shaper to do this sort of work. Not being able to get hold of an original one, I've made a copy for my Ammco. I also have a ground flat bar about 2 inches by 4 inches by a couple of feet long that lets me mount my Vertex dividing head on the 18 inch Alba shaper The tailstock goes nearest the shaper and the dividing head is over the edge of the table, allowing the use of most of the stroke for the actual job.

John Olsen

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Clive –

Sorry, I could not cite it, but as I had rather hoped, at least I have inspired others to supply such information; for which thank-you!

John Olsen –

Yes, that seems to be the arrangement I meant, but I could not recall the details of where I'd read of it . It was most likely your ME article!

I take it the shaping between centres is by putting the cross-feed in neutral and notching the dividing-head round a few degrees at a time? It may be feasible to make an attachment driven by the table-feed, that drives the dividing-head (or a rotary-table) instead.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Essentially yes Nigel – somewhat like a indexing head for a mill – index centres for shapers often have a baseplate which allows the head to extend a bit further back from the normal shaper table. Atlas used to sell one for their 7" shaper – I'll attach a scan of their catalogue from many years ago,,,

You can use a 'normal' dividing head but would probably need to make a table extension to mount it. A variation of the full indexing centre is the gear cutting set-up proposed by Base Circle, where the rotation of the 'head' is tied to the table movement and is used to generate involute gear shapes using a simple cutter.

Clive – in terms of cutting concave shapes, there was also an article by Eric Hughes in Model Engineer ( 7th May 1993) – called (strangely enough) "Shaping Concave Shapes" which has a diagram of the device he used to cut a loco saddle.

Regards,

IanT

Edited By IanT on 24/03/2019 22:31:33

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

John & IanT

Thank you very much for those Model Engineer references. Definitely sound like the sort of thing I'm looking for.

Time to hit the back numbers. My collection goes back to 1974, all in binders, so shouldn't take too long to find.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 24/03/2019 22:35:41

Edited By Clive Foster on 24/03/2019 22:36:24

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Clive,

The Base Circle article was published in 1950 – so you probably won't have access to it but if you have ME copies going back to 1974 then have a look at "Shaper Cut Gears" in ME 20th January 1989 – by C Bamford. It shows the arrangement Base Circle proposed.

Regards,

IanT

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

For the shaping between centres, yes, for a circular part you use the worm drive on the dividing head for a feed. But you can also make flats at arbitrary angles by setting to the angle, then taking a cut with the normal table feed. My eccentric straps used a combination of those techniques. The bottom half of the strap is a circular arc between the two "ears" for the screws, and the top part is a trapezoidal shape. I made a long piece of the section desired, then sliced it up into the four pieces needed and cleaned up the sides in the lathe. Then they were halved to make the top and bottom pieces.

Note that the supplementary table can do either concave or convex, depending on the slope of the angled guide bar.

Someone further back mentioned keeping the cutting edge back relative to the clapper box. Ideally you would do this, but it is not always possible. One case is when cutting keyways in a bore, and another was cutting the inside of my expansion links, which needed a tool that stuck out in front. If you can, have the cutting edge behind the clapper box, but if you can't, make sure things are as rigid as possible. My 10 inch Alba came with a set of Jones and Shipman tool holders, the kind that take a quarter inch square bit. They are the sort meant for a lathe, and this means that the tool bit is out in front, but despite this they work very well on the shaper. That is not to say that the proper shaper ones would not work better, but since they are pretty rare these days, try what you have, Just making sure things are as rigid as possible.

I have ME back to about 1944 with a few before that, so if you can't find the 1950 article give me a shout and I can scan it.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thank you for those references: I don't have copies of ME from the 1970s but my club has a sizeable collection so could have that one.

It's not shown in the Atlas catalogue but I take it there was some sort of support for that overhung dividing-head? I realise the frame was made for a massively-built industrial machine whose table is far heavier than the attachment and work, but it still looks a bit unfair on the shaper.

I had wondered about attachments for my dear little Drummond hand-operated machine (fuel: tea, and more tea!) and realised that for the way I have installed it, additional support for overhung loads would be fairly easy.

Many moons ago I formed the concavity in the fabricated-steel smoke-box saddle for a 7-1/4"g loco, on an ancient, very basic but hefty shaper in my club's workshop it had then. This operation was possible, though a bit hazardous, because the clapper-box was on a toothed quadrant rotated +/- about 45º from vertical by a worm fitted with a small handle. I set the tool to radius by measuring to its tip from the quadrant-pin centre; and used the smoke-box itself as a gauge.

I believe that the principle of gear-tooth generation by moving the table (and correspondingly rotating the gear-blank), is that used in the Fellowes Gear-shaper. I think the cutters for those was of rack form rather than single-point, but the essentially the same idea. One advantage is that for involute-teeth the tool would be straight-sided, (rack tooth-form), so easier to grind accurately.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by IanT on 24/03/2019 23:06:34:

Clive,

The Base Circle article was published in 1950 – so

.

**LINK**

http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Michael_Moore/shaper%20gear%20cut.pdf

MichaelG.

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi all, referring back to the moving of the cutting edge of a shaper, planer or even lathe tool behind the bottom edge of its shank in the manner of the legendary swan necked tools, tool spring causes the cutting edge to pivot away from the cutting plane preventing dig in, a handy technique to have at your disposal. I can't give the exact reference but in one Mr F C Camms books or an issue of Practical Mechanics magazine was a design for just such a device, crafted would you believe from a redundant bicycle crank, cut to a suitable length with whichever of its 2 holes suits your purpose, fitted for example in the toolpost of your shaper with hole along direction of ram travel the very simplest of holder for your tool of choice HSS? pulled against the back of the cycle crank by a nut & washer at the front, simples.

Construction time probably minutes rather than hours & if it doesn't give you the result you seek throw it over the hedge at the bottom of your garden, it worked for me years ago when I made one purely out of curiosity, I would dearly like to provide a fully dimensioned CAD drawing with attached CNC program but my missus says we have to go shopping now.

BobH

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

I want to be a shaper user but have no shaper. If any one has one for sale drop me a message.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I can't say who originally published the idea, but the or a design for a tool-holder made from a bicycle crank is in a book of which I have a copy.

It is: Lathe and Shaping Machine Tools, by "Duplex", first published in 1949 – mine is the TEE Publishing reprint, 1992.

Duplex was the pen-name of a regular contributor to Model Engineer.

The tool-holder described was for a Drummond hand-powered shaper, and takes tools ground from standard round tool-steel rod. A chapter on sharpening lathe and shaper tools includes basic designs for grinding-jigs.

This reference also explains that internal shaping (keyways and splines) is by draw-cutting, not pushing the tool through the bore, for which the clapper-box has to be locked. Duplex' method is a steel bar screwed across the clapper-box jaws, but loth to drill and tap potentially-weakening holes in my shaper or indeed modify it anyway, I would use the extended tool-holder fitted with a jacking-screw, above the box.

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Iv joined the shaper club

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

First time I have seen one mounted on the wall!

That is a ten inch Alba just like mine, a very handy size of machine. I see you have a very solid looking vice with it too, you will find that useful.

I don't suppose you will have any desperate need to take the head off, but there is a trick to it if you do. You have to turn the head around so it is upside down.

regards

John

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Posted by John Olsen on 21/04/2019 23:13:22:

First time I have seen one mounted on the wall!

That is a ten inch Alba just like mine, a very handy size of machine. I see you have a very solid looking vice with it too, you will find that useful.

I don't suppose you will have any desperate need to take the head off, but there is a trick to it if you do. You have to turn the head around so it is upside down.

regards

John

Thanks John I'll bear that in mind

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Tooling that got with the shaper

Edited By Steve King 5 on 22/04/2019 08:46:47

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Have just acquired an Adept No.2, hand powered one.

So at the bottom of the learning curve. First job was to make a couple of Tee nuts, and am now starting to cut metal to make a vice for it. (Shall cheat, and use the Mill/Drill! since have no work holding kit other then clamps. Although it would be nice to use it to make it's own tools! )

Will grind up tool bits as for a lathe, presumably, since it will be "turning" on an infinite radius.

Howard

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Lathe tool shapes will work fine. The most useful general purpose general purpose tool is probably a V shape, eg grind the end to a V with some clearance each side, and grind a bit of top rake on top, then put a very small radius or flat on the V end. This is used for planing flat surfaces, and it will cut feeding either way…so when you are planing down a surface, when you get to the far side, you add a little more cut and then reverse the direction of the table feed. A similar shape is sometimes used as a roughing cutter on a lathe, but they are not usually expected to cut in both directions.

But otherwise…a standard lathe type knife tool will cut into a corner, a parting type tool can cut slots and so on. Slots of course have all the usual problems like parting off. A narrow angle cutter is all that is needed to cut dovetails, along with a bit of thought about how to set the clapper box angle.

John

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Thanks John!

WHEN the vice is finished, mounted and aligned, shall start to graduate the Handwheels. Cross Slide is 10 tpi so 100 graduations. Downfeed is 16 tpi, so need 62.5 graduations. Looks like, using a 90:1 HV6 Rotary table, it will be 1 turn and 18 holes on a 41 hole plate. Should be 18.04, but can live an error of 0.007%.

Then will start to find jobs for it!

Howard

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Good morning people

Yesterday I was having a play around with the shaper and for some reason unknown to me the longer the stroke of cut the worse the finish gets. I starts lovely and smooth and gets progressively worse.

Don't know if it will show up in the picture.

Could anyone offer any advice?

Thanks

Steve

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Steve King 5 on 28/04/2019 10:03:56:

Good morning people

Yesterday I was having a play around with the shaper and for some reason unknown to me the longer the stroke of cut the worse the finish gets. I starts lovely and smooth and gets progressively worse.

Could anyone offer any advice?

Thanks

Steve

I'm no expert with these, having only recently bought one myself.

Are you picking a lower belt speed for the longer stroke? I think the tool velocity increases with the stroke, so for longer workpieces, try dropping the bely one or two grooves on the drive pulley.

Bill

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Perhaps the ram is rocking a little? Check the slides/gibs, etc and make sure they are snug with no up/down or side play.

Also check that the table is not moving downwards – as the stroke lengthens the lever action at the outer end of the table is greatest and tends to push the table end down – this can induce tool chatter and the like. Likewise check the table vertical (Z) and horizontal (X) slides for any play and snug the slides/gibs up close.

The table end also has a support bar/pillar that rides on the base of the Shaper – make sure that is properly length adjusted and that is slides smoothly on the base – some grease, etc.

Did you machine that plate in the vice? If not, ignore this – If so , did you use packing beneath and firmly tap the plate down whilst tightening up the vice jaws – If the plate is not as square as the vice jaws are parallel, it may also rock in the vice add resulting poor finish.

Joe…

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

One of my shapes is in the garden as a bird table.

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Posted by peak4 on 28/04/2019 10:39:16:

Posted by Steve King 5 on 28/04/2019 10:03:56:

Good morning people

Yesterday I was having a play around with the shaper and for some reason unknown to me the longer the stroke of cut the worse the finish gets. I starts lovely and smooth and gets progressively worse.

Could anyone offer any advice?

Thanks

Steve

I'm no expert with these, having only recently bought one myself.

Are you picking a lower belt speed for the longer stroke? I think the tool velocity increases with the stroke, so for longer workpieces, try dropping the bely one or two grooves on the drive pulley.

Bill

Hi Bill

No I have not changed anything since picking it up last week. I'll try your suggestion.

Thanks

Steve

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 28/04/2019 10:45:36:

Perhaps the ram is rocking a little? Check the slides/gibs, etc and make sure they are snug with no up/down or side play.

Also check that the table is not moving downwards – as the stroke lengthens the lever action at the outer end of the table is greatest and tends to push the table end down – this can induce tool chatter and the like. Likewise check the table vertical (Z) and horizontal (X) slides for any play and snug the slides/gibs up close.

The table end also has a support bar/pillar that rides on the base of the Shaper – make sure that is properly length adjusted and that is slides smoothly on the base – some grease, etc.

Did you machine that plate in the vice? If not, ignore this – If so , did you use packing beneath and firmly tap the plate down whilst tightening up the vice jaws – If the plate is not as square as the vice jaws are parallel, it may also rock in the vice add resulting poor finish.

Joe…

Thanks Joseph I'll look in to your suggestions tighrbut I can say all the Gibson are right possibly I little too tight. The table end bar was adjusted and I used a vice with Hss blanks as parallels. The work piece was firmly tapped down on to them. But writing this reply and I'm thinking I just chucked the vice on. I'll take it off and clock/tram it true see it that helps.

Thanks

Steve

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