WHERE ARE THE SHAPER USERS ?

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Thanks Clive

That seems very promising. Apparently no parts missing and I now have a beeter understanding of how it should work.

I will clean mine out, and check the spring is not too strong, and hopefully that will cure my problem.

Thanks again.

Rod

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Rod

Just looked at my manual. As the pawl lifting knob, used to disengage the auto-feed system, also works against the same spring and through the same bore maybe a flush through in situ with Plus Gas followed by re-oiling might free things up enough to get it working. Once its going decent oiling and regular exercise should keep it happy.

I avoid WD40 for this sort of thing as any success seems to be rather temporary due to its tendency to leave deposits behind which go gummy after a while.

Clive.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Neil – from your post on 30/09/2016 at 12:27:20, you were looking at the ArcEuroTrade CI angle plate – which is now done by Chronos as well, – did you ever go down this route with your Adept 2 shaper?

Also, did you go down the stepper motor/drive belt to the feed handle route, and if so, could you put some details and/or piccs on here please? Would be very interested in following suite.

Chris

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

In answer to Rod's question about the ratchet mechanism, it seems to be quite common on any shaper that when you reverse the ratchet, all that happens is that the screw oscillates back and forth and does not drive the table. The solution is to turn the lead screw handle in the new direction to take up the slack after changing direction. (It will only go the correct way because the ratchet will prevent you going the wrong way.) Once the screw is actually moving the table there is enough friction to work the ratchet. This is the drill on all three of my shapers. I suppose part of this is that since they are all at least 50 years old, and maybe more than seventy, there is a bit of wear in the lead screw and nut so there is backlash. Once the backlash is taken up it all works well.

John

[Kevin DParticipant @kevind]

Hi Rod.

I had the same after rebuilding my 10m. I fitted a teflon washer behind the scale on the cross feed screw and a fiber washer behind the nut and washer on the adjustment end. Slight drag with no back lash. It may show in pic's on my album. The big mod's were to the oiling system. A common reservoir for the 4 oilers on the back with 1/4" air line fittings connecting them. The ram and crank oilers were replaced with 1/4" and 3/8" flare refrigeration fittings with caps. A visible and ample reservoir to fill with oil.

The 10m was stripped to small parts and transported home to the top of a very steep driveway in the boot of a car. My son asked while struggling to help carry the main body casting, what would I do with it. Answer, use it till I fell off the perch, then it would be his problem to get it back down the hill.

Kevin

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

They definitely need some friction. My Drummond has a spring-loaded friction piece bearing on the feed screw.

Emma, on her spare room workshop u-toob, was missing the friction pad and could not understand why her feed ratchet did not work properly….

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Thanks to everyone who has addressed my problem with the cross feed ratchet on my 10M.

I had a quick play with it last night and a combination of easing oil and taking up the slack has produced a reliable feed in one direction, but not yet the other. I will work on it again now I know how it is supposed to work and that some friction is required. I do wonder now if I might have caused the problem by oiling the leadscrew and its bearings some weeks ago!

Thanks again

Rod

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

Posted by ChrisH on 10/02/2019 22:41:04

Also, did you go down the stepper motor/drive belt to the feed handle route, and if so, could you put some details and/or piccs on here please? Would be very interested in following suite.

Chris

If it’s of any interest I modified my Adept 2 by adding a stepper motor on an extension to the feed shaft. Some simple digital electronics gives a range of feed increments, triggered by a micro switch positioned so that it’s actuated by the operating handle.

Mike

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Mike Crossfield on 12/02/2019 12:33:07:

Posted by ChrisH on 10/02/2019 22:41:04

Also, did you go down the stepper motor/drive belt to the feed handle route, and if so, could you put some details and/or piccs on here please? Would be very interested in following suite.

Chris

If it’s of any interest I modified my Adept 2 by adding a stepper motor on an extension to the feed shaft. Some simple digital electronics gives a range of feed increments, triggered by a micro switch positioned so that it’s actuated by the operating handle.

Mike

Mike,

Can you indicate your micro switch arrangement, please, to overcome advancement on both forward and back strokes.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Mike – I second NDIY's last post, would love to see details of your stepper motor/digital electronic/micro switch arrangement. I have just got an Adept No.2 and the feed modification is high on my "would-like-to-do" list!

Thanks,

Chris

 

Edited By ChrisH on 12/02/2019 16:00:34

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ChrisH on 12/02/2019 16:00:01:

Mike – I second NDIY's last post, would love to see details of your stepper motor/digital electronic/micro switch arrangement.

.

Thirded !

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I hazard a guess that the switch is at the back end of the ram – just gets a quick trigger at the end of the stroke.

A stepper is low torque and needs a psu and a bit of electronics but a simpler system would be that little 12v geared motor at the back of your 'useful bits' box that was either a windscreen wiper or window opener. Use a few cams to lift a microswitch after a part turn or a full turn each time it is set going, bit like the way a windscreen wiper does intermittent wipes.

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

The micro switch arrangement was a quick lash up to test everything out, but it worked so well that it became permanent and has been in place for 5 years now. It’s one of those micro switches with an actuator which is a length of springy wire. The operating lever for the shaper simply butts up against it on the back stroke, and the spring absorbs any overtravel

I’ll try to take some photos tomorrow.

Mike

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

GOk, here are a couple of photos of my Adept 2 with stepper motor feed. The micro switch which triggers the feed can be seen behind the control box. There are another couple of photos in my album.

Regards

Mike

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks Mike

MichaelG.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Mike Crossfield:

A fascinating blend of old and new!

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Just seen this – been travelling most of the day – many thanks Mike for posting the pictures, very nice set up. Why I don't know, but I had assumed the set up would have been on the other side to the table; I guess on reflection because I was thinking it would just replace the handle. I was also expecting a toothed belt drive rather than a direct drive, shows how wrong one can be!

Did you just have the motor and controller lying about or did you have to go out and buy them? If so, do you still have details of what they were, or a circuit diagram if you made the controller yourself, that you could share please? I know nothing about stepper motors and controllers but have started trying to get info off the internet, but enlightenment from you would save having to reinvent the wheel.

You shaper looks in lovely condition by the way, love the downfeed handle and dial, that really looks the business – must copy that too!

Chris

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

Chris

The stepper motor is a Nema23 5v 1A unit that I had in the spares box. It’s just about man enough for the job, though if your slide is stiff you might want to go up to a beefier version – you can get higher current Nema23 motors in longer lengths with correspondingly increased torque. The controller is my own design, using a couple of digital cmos chips and a few discretes. Quite simple, just responds to triggers from the micro switch to give a selectable number of pulses to the stepper motor driver. The direct gearing worked out quite nicely with a 400 step/rev stepper motor, so it was easy to arrange for step sizes of 2, 4, 8 or 16 thou. Regretably I don’t seem to have kept details of the circuit, The stepper driver is a standard design based on discrete components which I had to hand.. If I was doing it again I would use one of the widely advertised eBay Chinese drivers which are more efficient and cost just a few pounds. It’s a good idea to allow for disconnection of the stepper motor when you want to use manual feed. If you don’t disconnect the motor from the driver there is significant “cogging” when you turn the handle, even with the power off, due to back emf in the motor. The effect is much less with the motor disconnected.

Regards

Mike

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Thanks for the heads up Mike, I'll explore along the lines you suggest.

Chris

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Thanks Mike. I had got it in my head, I suppose, that the feed should be advanced while on the actual back stroke, not as one changes direction – but I suppose the advancement will be fast enough to complete before the next forward stroke begins (when you have a rhythm going, you don’t want to hesitate at the start of each stroke).

I think I will incorporate a robust adjustable stop for the back stroke so the switch is protected from the momentum of the handle and my arm. A hardish rubber stop (door stop?) seems to be a good starting point, plus a timing circuit to delay the next trip – to avoid any double feed advancements.

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

Ndiy

I used a clock rate in the control unit such that the feed advance takes just a fraction of second. Since the trigger occurs just before the reverse of the feed stroke there is little risk in normal operation of the advance occurring during cutting.

A backstop buffer would be no bad thing, but If you are able to find a microswitch like the one I used you will find that the flexibility of the operating wire is such that it will absorb considerable overswing of the handle without any damage(so far!). Not clear in the photos, but I mounted my microswitch with a single screw, so I can easily tilt it to make some adjustment if I want to vary the length of the stroke.

I seem to remember adding an RC combination on the microswitch input to prevent double triggering.

Regards

Mike

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

My Drummond manual shaper's been busy lately!

I've just fitted a 3-ph motor set to my Harrison L5 lathe, and made the pair of tensioning arms holding the motor frame above the headstock* , from bits of old miniature-railway rail that our Mam would have said "looked as if they'd been dragged though a hedge backwards". They almost had been, left stacked among shrubs and dead leaves.

That shaper gave a pretty decent finish on the two shorter parts of the arms, more importantly with no rocking when tested on the table of my Meddings bench-drill. It did take a long time to cut below the worst of the rust pits, and I ended up with a sore shoulder, but it was otherwise rather relaxing and satisfying.

I chickened out and milled the mating faces on the longer arms, and the slots in the shorter ones!

As a point of model-building integrity, it occurred to me that a really good shaper finish would not only be functional but also right in looks for surfaces whose prototypes would indeed have been shaped or planed.

It's worth searching out older reference-books on shapers and shaper-tooling, and noting that the cutting edge should be under the clapper-box fulcrum to minimise digging-in. It was also common to use spring-tools, but this is less essential.

This means borrowing your lathe's tools may not be right. I recall seeing one poor shaper holding a lathe tool not only too deep itself, but packed out to push the edge even further forwards. I was too polite to query this with its operators, in a demonstration workshop at A Major Model-Engineering Exhibition!

I also file a small chamfer on the entry edge of the work-piece, slightly reducing the shock as the tool starts cutting.

For internal key-ways and splines, it is normal to draw-cut with the clapper-box locked. Some books show a locking bar screwed across the box. If you don't want to risk modifying the machine in a way that weakens the clapper-box holder, you can use a tool-holder with a jacking-screw in a top end that projects above the clapper-box.

For those who like making tools (to make more tools?) there exists an old design principle for a secondary table that allows a shaper to cut large-radii concavities such as smoke-box and motor saddles. This alternative to rather alarming fly-cutting, uses the geometry of rigid guides constraining the sub-table to move horizontally and vertically, simultaneously, so at each increment it forms a new tangent to a constant arc.

Most people motor-driving a manual shaper probably use these machines' usual crank and swinging-arm, but given that higher return-stroke speed is less important in amateur than production work, I have wondered if a self-reversing screw-drive would work here. It would be a challenge to thread-mill a full L+RH reversing-screw, but its main disadvantage is the fixed travel. I think my dear little Drummond will remain driven by an H.Sapiensis powered by tea!

*Lathe motor. The original Harrison L5 motor-mount was a massive steel box welded to the back of the cabinet, forcing the machine a long way out from the wall. To regain this lost space in a cramped workshop, I have cut the box off, and placed the new motor on a wall-frame over the headstock. It also raises the motor away from the dark and dusty depths.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 14/03/2019 22:28:13:

For those who like making tools (to make more tools?) there exists an old design principle for a secondary table that allows a shaper to cut large-radii concavities such as smoke-box and motor saddles. This alternative to rather alarming fly-cutting, uses the geometry of rigid guides constraining the sub-table to move horizontally and vertically, simultaneously, so at each increment it forms a new tangent to a constant arc.

Nigel

Any chance of a reference to this guided secondary table principle? I think I may have an applications for such a device in the near future.

Clive

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Clive,

I suggest you have a look at "Contour Work with a Metal Shaper" – Popular Mechanics October 1958

It's available on Google books – and hopefully this link will take you there…

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA218&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Regards,

IanT

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That's an excellent article, Ian

Thanks for the reference.

MichaelG.

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