WHERE ARE THE SHAPER USERS ?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Even if just roughing down a decent finish should be normal.

Typically I reckon on something akin to that on an extruded light alloy bar on surfaces that are to be subsequently machined. Marking out shows up well and, if need be for more complex things, the slightly rough surface holds marking fluid well.

Frankly its hard to do worse unless your tool is blunted or the material obdurately unco-operative.

Clive

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/09/2023 12:14:33:

I notice one or two contributions seem to hint at the belief in the shaper (or planer) being a "roughing" tool preparatory to "finish" milling.

I didn't mean to imply that Nigel, the finish I can get with the shaper is very good and will be even better if I take the time to get it. There are also operatons that I prefer to use the shaper for (dovetails for instance) and some where I have little choice (internal slotting). But it's a balance of what needs doing.

If I get to the stage where I need to 'mill' a feature, then once it's set-up on the mill, I'll probably leave it there, although normally the major surfaces will be already finished.

Regards,

IanT

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Here I am cutting a set of splines.

Edited By mark costello 1 on 12/09/2023 19:37:03

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Apologies I said I'd post a picture of my newly aquired 10M, life got in the way and I still have not tidied up! looking a lot cleaner than when purchased at first it was not evident it was in a two tone colour scheme, but paraffin and elbow grease have bought it up ok. Ex school it has not had a lot of use, three phase but wired for single using a capacitor it runs fine, had a play with it on some scrap but looking forward to using it in earnest.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Hi Dave , exactly the same as mine and ex education as well. Mine has a date on the tool[ost swivel its 120976!. I also made the sleeve gear and post to enable auto vertical feed, a really worthwhile exercise .

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi Bernard

Just checked mine and it is 120907 so not far off yours. I'm not sure when Elliott packed up, there were a number of ex Elliott emloyees that had recently been made redundant in the firm I served my time with in the early 70's, but then again I briefly worked for a firm that imported some Taiwanese mills ( A1-S) in 1980 and badged some as RMT ( sold by themselves) and others as Elliott ( for a dealer) so there must have been some badge engineering going on. I'm intrigued and will have a bit of a search on the company's history. Very interested in the vertical feed as looking in the manual and at some online pictures it looked a fairly straightforward and interesting job. Be great to see some pictures of your conversion.

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I was under the impression that Elliott in some form transformed into 'Gate' who still exist but with rather newer product lines.

[Tony RayParticipant @tonyray65007]

Mines 120956 so also pretty close!

[GarthParticipant @garth]

Hi guy just have a general question, has anybody put a spring under the tool holder to lift it at end of stroke just a small amount and had good results?

Some machines have fancy lifting mechanisms would it be comparable.

Garth.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

when cutting tee slots people use a hinge to lift the tool completely clear after each cut, this requires quite a bit of extra stroke either end.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Garth on 19/09/2023 14:28:55:

Hi guy just have a general question, has anybody put a spring under the tool holder to lift it at end of stroke…

Garth.

If the tool is lifted, it won't make contact on the cut stroke either…Gravity is your friend..

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

If you own a shaper or planing-machine it would seem worth finding a book on using them as they are more subtle than appears..

.

Garth –

Could you be a bit clearer what you mean? Shapers relieve the tool for the return stroke anyway. The hinged clapper-box (hence its name!) lets the tool slide back along the work surface, and depending on the tool shape this will often raise the cutting edge itself slightly clear of the work. They don't use a spring.

Certain operations, particularly keyway / spline cutting normally back towards the machine, need the clapper locking. This does let the tool edge rub but it seems to work, and shaper tools are easy to resharpen! I think cutting down a vertical side does as well.

With a tool-steel tool this is relatively easily done by drilling and tapping the softer upper end of the bar to take a screw that abuts on the vertical slide, between its bearing surfaces. Alternatively use a mild-steel tool-holder with such a screw, that accepts a small, inserted HSS bit, and such a tool can be made to tilt the bit sideways for vertical side shaping. (HSS not carbide, which is brittle and might not give a decent finish anyway.)

Some planing-machines had a tool-box rotated by suitable gear 180º at the end of each cut, but probably only on the larger machines, and simply to halve the production time by cutting in both directions.

.

Bernard –

Tee-slotting may well be an operation where a spring would make life simpler by lifting the tool completely clear of the top of the work. The tool-holder is hinged anyway of course. A bungee cord might be effective, given the large tool swing needed!

@@@@@

Note that the cutting edge needs be below or only a little forwards of but not behind, the clapper fulcrum.

I normally file a low-angle chamfer on the approach edge of the work to ease the shock a bit. On me as well as my even older machine, and the work; as my shaper is a Drummond manual one! My main tool on it is a carbon-steel spring-tool, as was often recommended.

Some here have asked about cutting lubricant on a shaper. I use tapping-paste, or soluble cutting oil used nearly neat so it stays on the metal.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Some machines did have lifting mechanisms, but they don't seem to be really necessary, and I think especially not for amateur use where we are not generally doing long production runs. The tools seem to last fine even if they do drag backwards over the surface and are simple to sharpen. Even carbide doesn't seem to mind.

I've done T slots with the cutter locked, no problem. Home made T slot cutters for the shaper are cheaper than T slot cutters of the mill, and much easier to sharpen.

For vertical facing, if you angle the clapper box correctly it will let the tool swing to clear the face on the return stroke. Same applies to dove tails.

You can use pretty much the same cutting oil on a shaper as you would on a lathe, with the added advantage that it won't try to fling it at you quite so much.

John

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thinking about the geometry, with the clapper-box operative, the return stroke should lift the cutting edge off the metal. The heel of the tool is what slides on the workpiece; and despite the work advancing from the side.

When locked for key-way cutting, the returning of the tool is akin to what happens when we back off a tap or die. The edge does rub but with relatively little load on it because it has already cut the metal away (neglecting any springing).

Even so, the clapper-box should still be unlocked for external surfacing, partly due to the larger amount of metal being removed, but also to avoid jamming against the feed's flanking movement.

(Unlike using a saw or file without relieving the return. That does put a heavy, unfair load on the teeth unless of some bi-directional form not normally found on metalworking tools.)

[Steve King 5Participant @steveking5]

Got a alba 1a and a load of tooling that I've not used for about 2 years.

Willing to sell if if any one is looking for one

[GarthParticipant @garth]

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 19/09/2023 16:33:04:

Posted by Garth on 19/09/2023 14:28:55:

Hi guy just have a general question, has anybody put a spring under the tool holder to lift it at end of stroke…

Garth.

If the tool is lifted, it won't make contact on the cut stroke either…Gravity is your friend..

It would making contact with new metal. assuming it is stepping.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Posted by Garth on 20/09/2023 06:59:54:

Posted by Joseph Noci 1 on 19/09/2023 16:33:04:

Posted by Garth on 19/09/2023 14:28:55:

Hi guy just have a general question, has anybody put a spring under the tool holder to lift it at end of stroke…

Garth.

If the tool is lifted, it won't make contact on the cut stroke either…Gravity is your friend..

It would making contact with new metal. assuming it is stepping.

Not really – think about it – the spring would need to lift it a few 100th's to clear cut metal, but not more than the new metal when stepped over – so what prevents the spring from lifting it to the extent it can? A fine adjust on the spring so it lifts just a smidge? And when friction on the clapper pivot changes ( oil, machine warms up, whatever), the spring lifts less – or more….And if it did lift just enough, it means there will be a little ridge at the start of cut , all along the edge of the workpiece, as the cutter is just a little higher than the set depth as the cut starts. The normal gravity drop starts the cut with the cutter fully down in place each time. The spring would mean the clapper never fully shuts …or 'claps'..

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Suggest you read page 51 of shaper operations by j w Barritt. . As regards to using a hinge.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Suggest you read page 51 of shaper operations by j w Barritt. . As regards to using a hinge.

[ianbParticipant @ianb]

Not sure how many people know this – on some (most?) shapers, look beneath the clapper box – on mine (Elliott 18″), there’s a hole, about 2 1/2″ diameter all the way through, under the ram. The machine will swallow a shaft of that diameter if you want to cut a keyway etc.

Ian

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Mick – 

That’s two of us with one of those lovely old manual Drummond manual shapers!

Mine’s not all nice and shiny but a sort of oxide patina (not loose rust!) on the bare parts, and a rather incongruous gloss-white (by previous owner) on the body. It also has the original vice, not an extended one as yours.

I last used it last year – a week or so ago – to face two sides of a block of cast-iron; but its previous task was surfacing a steel bench-block for a friend whose hobbies include silver-smithing.

One problem I used to have was the ram gib working its way out, and this appeared to be by the adjustment screws slacking off. They were too short for lock-nuts so I made new ones from 8mm square bar, and thin lock-nuts. By chance I have a square-notched ‘Thiel’-stamped spanner that proved just right for these new screws.

….

Generally –

We naturally assume straight surfaces – e.g. flats, dovetails and keyways – but in the long-past I think attachments could be bought for various other, including arcuate, works.

The 7.25″g tank loco my club built, had its smokebox saddle radius cut using a big, ancient shaping-machine with a worm and quadrant clapper-box mounting.

One system for generating large concave radii on a shaper, employs a sub-table sliding simultaneously on rigid horizontal and vertical guides bolted to the main table. I don’t know how the radius is set, except perhaps by tool length.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

My Elliot 10M started squeaking tonight, its the large gearwheel with stroke adjustment and its rubbing on the long rocking arm, hence the squeak. difficult to see much as after they built these the used some really thick primer filler so all joins and shaft ends are hidden (but they looked good). perhaps start chipping away at it in the obvious places tomorrow.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Have stripped the side cover off today and underneath is a big casting with bushes for the main gearshaft and it has a oil hole in it! but no oil hole in cover, until you chisel/scrape the 1/8″ of paint off to reveal a ball bearing oiler(the bloke coiuld paint well but didn’t have a clue what he was painting). so housing removed and bushes scraped and cleaned and with some lube put back together and when it runs its as quiet as a mouse, job done.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

When I worked in a sugar mill. We attached an air grinder to one so we could grind down hard facing on wear plates. We only ran it on night shifts as the noise was horrendous!

[Author]

Posts