When buying a second hand machine tool, would you prefer a rebuilt machine or a project?

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

It's a long, meandering post. Please bear with me.

 

All of the second hand machine tools I've bought or inherited over the years have needed work doing to them to bring them back to good condition. From the bandsaw with the broken belt guard, wheel and pivots (obviously had an argument with something heavy), to the Hardinge lathe that had spent time as a metal spinning and polishing machine after the apron gearbox was wrecked by corrosion etc.

When I bought my Royal 10" shaper, the seller said "It's not had much use, the scraping marks are still visible". There were certainly 'scraping marks', over the top of the wear marks! . That was my first rebuilding project and I got it good enough to use. 15 years later, when I finished rebuilding my milling machine (that was just worn out) and no longer needed the shaper, I felt that it would not be reasonable to sell a machine that wasn't in a condition that'd satisfy me.

I gave it a more thorough rebuild, re-aligned and scraped the ways and gibs, corrected all the clearances and so on. I think the buyer was extremely happy with it, didn't charge him enough!

My 24"x36" surface table has got lapped to 112 micro inches, mainly as a learning exercise so I could lap my larger surface table. I'll probably sell it in that condition, even though the stand is rusty (that got stored outside).

Now, I'm most of the way through initial cleaning and assembling a BCS Mk2 jig borer from the best bits of the incomplete machine mentioned at the bottom of this thread and of the, incomplete, unbranded (possibly wartime) machine that I inherited from my father.

Inspection shows that this machine has got significant wear, not surprising, it's 60 or so years old. Curiously it's also got engine turning or jewelling on part of it, as well as 'scraper marks' on top of a three thou groove worn by the rotary table…

I'm never going to use this machine, because shortly before I got Dan Shouler's incomplete machine, I bought a Mk111 that needs some, but less work.

Question is, Should I give it the proper rebuild that it deserves? That will include surface grinding down to the level of the above wear, a complete re-scape and alignment of all the ways, correcting the few thous of feed screw backlashes by very careful turning to even up the thread forms and replacement of the headstock nut (the others have backlash adjustment). At the end of that process, it'll be as good as it was when it left the factory. Or should I sell it as it is and tell any prospective buyers what work it needs if they want to bring it back to perfection?

I don't trust most sellers of 'refurbished' 'rebuilt' 'little used' 'ex-college' machines because almost every one that I've seen described as such has been a layer of lipstick/scotchbrite/porch paint over a pig. So should I sell the machine in clean, but worn condition or should I put the effort in to rebuild it that someone else may not want or be able to?

 

Edited By Mark Rand on 01/11/2021 15:51:22

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Is it worth rebuilding a machine before selling it?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

It it works "well enough" move it on at a price that reflects how well "well enough" is.

If it doesn't work unload it and get some more "me" time.

You'll never get enough money from "perfect rebuild" to reflect the effort involved. Which all to often is way OTT for a practical user.

Heck my plan A after rescuing my P&W B 12 x 30 from a scrapyard was a rebuild, go through and re-paint. But I had a job for it. 20 years on it still looks untidy. Did paint the tailstock after stripping to replace the locking wedge! I still have to be careful with the single tooth clutch and the auto feed throw out is inconsistent. But it I concentrate it can still produce a finish that polishing would spoil and be tenths thou' accurate, one thou being normal routine off the dials. My S&B 1024 is a bit smarter, as accurate, and I've been saying I should drop the apron for a look-see for even longer.

Go for it if you enjoy doing such rebuilds. You will get back more than you paid and, hopefully, cover your direct expenditure. Certainly beats the hell out of a golf club subscription on a £ per hour of fun criteria.

Only a pro can afford a pro quality rebuild and a pro isn't going to be using a BCA.

There is no machine tool collector / polisher market like there is for cars and motorcycles.

Clive

PS:- Had a BCA once. Not enough money in the world to bribe me into using one again. Or big enough gun to threaten (er do Iowas 16" cannon still work?).

Edited By Clive Foster on 01/11/2021 16:35:57

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Maybe I have been lucky in my machinery, getting it at a good reasonable price or better still being gifted it. My lathe(s) are Raglan Little John's which worked but needed tidying up to make them reliable and I have modified them to make them better than their original designs. Many years ago I was given an Atlas 7" shaper by a farmer for some parts I made for him, it hadn't been used for 30 odd years and was covered in cobwebs and rust, but I rebuilt it to be a fine machine which produces really nice accurate work. Recently I was gifted a heap of rust which underneath was a wonderful Q&S QDM drilling machine, I quickly set to, freed it up, put new bearings into it and have latterly finished it off with a coat of paint and a new dedicated inverter drive for it.

Meanwhile I have an Adcock & Shipley Bridgeport which I am about to begin a restoration project on. I get as much pleasure out of restoring an 'old girl' to her glory as I do in using her! I'll use the Bridgeport for a time as I have a couple of Aciera F3's which meet most of my needs. I'm hankering after a Thiel Model 159 which I know is not in use and the company that have it are looking to scrap it out – so there is the next project after the Bridgeport lined up! By restoring a machine you get to know it intimately and get so much more pleasure out of it.

Martin

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Mark,

sort of depends… if your hobby is machine tool rebuilding (seems to be from long observation ) then rebuild it properly.
If you are going to sell it I would think there are other machine tool rebuild hobbiests who would love to start from a known state – clean but worn.

Your unlikely to make money rebuilding it, and I suspect it’s just as saleable in honest known clean but worn condition.

The most objectionable thing about “rebuilt” is that they are generally “cleaned and made to look good” – it’s a morally ambiguous position – one mans rebuild is another mans slapped some paint on it

<warning massive generalisation ahead>The dealers are generally trying to make a buck so don’t spend more than they can get back, which leads to a description that is more positive thought than practical rebuilding.

Dave

PS how much?

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Gotta be honest Mark, if I wasn;t restoring it for it's own sake or rebuilding a machine that I wanted to us eI would simply sell it on as it stands. I rebuild machines (properly) and I wouldn't put several dozen hours into rebuilding that machine not knowing if it was going to be r=treated right or at least to get some value ot of it for my work, and we all know that isn't going to happen at any reasonable hourly rate.

Worse stil you might sell it on at a rate you found resonable only for it to be re-sold at considerable mark-up due to your hard work. I once sold a very rare machine to a guy who I thought was a deserving cause and later found out he sold it on unchanged for nearly 4x the money AND had the gall to claim my work in renovating it as his own. You only need to learn that lesson once.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's like the car market, caveat emptor

…but there are a few bargains to be had if you know your way around

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Unless you have good knowledge of the capabilities and commitment of the rebuilder, then a rebuilt machine too is a project – you'll have to test it extensively to arrive at an informed opinion of the rebuild.

To me a machine tool is just a means to an end, and if I have to buy secondhand, I'd rather have a lightly-used machine of well-known capabilities than either a rebuild or a project.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Doesn’t this depend on one’s machining ability (often including scraping). Doesn’t this depend on the kit the person might have, or need, to effect any necessary improvements?

Most people would, I am sure, appreciate a machine in good working order, not a POS. Many,even, would not know the difference between a restorable machine (at reasonable cost) and a boat anchor.

This is the reason why SOD always recommends buying new, particularly for beginners.

What is reprehensible is selling something, worthy of boat anchor status, while claiming it to be in good condition.

[jann westParticipant @jannwest71382]

Should I give it the proper rebuild that it deserves? … Or should I sell it as it is and tell any prospective buyers what work it needs if they want to bring it back to perfection?

Like car restoration, machine tools lovingly restored to a high level rarely increase in value (as defined by subsequent resale) proportional to the investment in restoration – there are exceptions, but they are few.

Restore it for the joy that you get from the process. Or restore it to the level that makes it functional for your purposes. If you are seeking to maximise return you are probably best either 1. getting it to a functional and complete level, if its already close, or 2. selling it as parts.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

If you enjoy doing the rebuild then yes. If you don't then sell it on being completely honest about its condition (as I'm sure you would be), so the buyer knows what they are getting. When you buy something that someone else has rebuilt you have no idea of their skills; we've all seen the best efforts of "professional renovations" and so that is likely to make people cautious.

My time is worth more than the money I'd make these days.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Thank you, one and all, for your sage advice. I do enjoy rebuilding machines for my use, but I've got no emotional investment in this particular machine other than its cabinet has spent quite a few years as a useful place to put cutters and collets for the beaver milling machine.

I've just about finished de-rusting and cleaning the last bit of it, so I'll reassemble it all, adjust the gibs, feedscrew nuts and bearings to the best they can take, given wear and see how it feels.

If it seems to be usable in that condition, I'll stick it on fleabay with an honest description. If it's not usable, I'll do the minimum extra to make it so, not a full rebuild (cleaning wasn't rebuilding, just maintenance).

Then, when I've got rid of the little surface table, I might actually have room in the shed to swing a cat, once again.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

If you are the type of person who questions the quality and accuracy of a machine and have the necessary skills and money to do the job properly for your subsequent own use then yes as you will never be satisfied otherwise. The money and time outlay will end up far outlaying the economics of the project. Many years ago I worked for a company that refurbished jig grinders to better standards than original because the user required better accuracy and these were charged at 75% of new price just for the rebuild. Much better to buy a machine that is to the specification you want otherwise you end up not making anything unless that is what you want.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

At the museum, we are slowly gwtting towards finishing the Atlas 12 x 24 lathe which was left to the museum in a legacy. When it is eventually sold, it will be in full working condition with up to date fully certified electrics. I t will be ready to use including tooling. The alternative is simply selling it as a non working project for somebody. We will not be putting a lick of paint on it to make it look pretty, we will be selling a working machine to turn metal, not a pretty looking heap of s–t.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Finished getting the bitza cleaned and reassembled today. X and Y feedscrews have worst case .004" backlash after anti-backlash nuts are adjusted. Z feedscrew is between .008 and .025, with no adjustment in the nut as designed.

So X and Y are acceptable, but Z is unusable. It'll get a new feedscrew and nut. Probably make a set for my Mk111 while I'm at it,

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

A freshly painted machine is a red flag for me especially id there is paint where it should not be. Lipstick on a pig.

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