When boredom overtakes, make something, anything!

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Posted by Tony sacc on 22/08/2023 01:01:02:

Posted by Robert Butler on 21/08/2023 15:36:57:

Posted by Tony sacc on 21/08/2023 12:43:43:

Posted by Dave Halford on 21/08/2023 11:11:26:

Posted by Tony sacc on 18/08/2023 04:08:28:

Its just my attempt at Chinglish. At least it doesn't actually say F off. I passed it by a Chinese girl who spoke Cantonese, she didn't know, said it was maybe something like drill sharpener. So apparently event the Chinese can't speak Chinese, Cantonese or Mandarin. Maybe,the Chinese are like the Malays, and have two versions of their language, one spoken by the well educated, the other spoken by market people.

Edited By Tony sacc on 18/08/2023 04:13:09

No Tony it's just that you can't write any form of Chinese properly and I wonder how that XS 650 got built without drawings.

I agree, I have no idea how to write Chinese,not even improperly, that's probably because I'm not Chinese. Just some characters I pulled off the internet.

You need a drawing to build a bike? I don't know anybody who does that. I guess it's down to visualising what you're after, and dare I say it – imagination!

Perhaps Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki and BMW have a few drawings to work from.The ultimate design resultulting from the input of many departments and outside contractors. Hopefully this is not as the result of using unimagenative employees. Not much will be left to the imagination of one individual, and not much will be left to chance given the vast budgetts required to produce one model of motorcycle.

Your theory makes a nonsence of what is actually required.

Robert Butler

Well now,that is the most ridiculous diatribe I've ever heard. Would it surprise you know that I do not design and build commercial items, nor do Suzuli, Honda, Yamaha, et al, design and build one off custom bikes. I'm simply a hobbyist, making stuff in my workshop in the back yard. And I would immagine, most on this forum are the same – hobbyists.

Your diatribe makes a nonsense of you!

Most of Honda's, Suzukis's and Yamaha's GP Bikes of the Classic era were produced in very small numbers and it is difficult to imagine producing a multi-cylinder two or four stroke engine in capacaties ranging from 50cc to 500cc without drawings. Respectfully suggest you check the definition of diatribe, i was merely suggesting drawings resulting from inputs from many sources are the only way to produce a finished motorcycle rather than modifying an existing design.

Robert Butler.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

I built my bike without a single drawing, plan or sketch and I know most people like myself do the same, and yet you keep harping on about Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, et al. They are commercial enterprises, I am not!

I made dozens and dozens of mods for my TX650, hardly anything on the bike has not been modified, not a single plan, sketch or drawing. And whether you believe it or not, I am not alone, most custom bike builders are the same.

People like myself who build bikes and other things in their backyard workshops are not commercial entities.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Tony sacc on 22/08/2023 23:28:17:

I built my bike without a single drawing, plan or sketch and I know most people like myself do the same, and yet you keep harping on about Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, et al. They are commercial enterprises, I am not!

I made dozens and dozens of mods for my TX650, hardly anything on the bike has not been modified, not a single plan, sketch or drawing. And whether you believe it or not, I am not alone, most custom bike builders are the same.

People like myself who build bikes and other things in their backyard workshops are not commercial entities.

Most builds come from the imagination, modifications are planned and made on the run, mostly trial and error: Make something, don't like it, make it again. I do that with everything I make: Ride on mowers, go carts, mini bikes, custom show bikes, machinery, furniture, tools, jigs, recumbents, etc.

[Ian HewsonParticipant @ianhewson99641]

Boredom has taken over, I’m off to make something.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Tony sacc on 22/08/2023 23:34:41:

Posted by Tony sacc on 22/08/2023 23:28:17:

I built my bike without a single drawing, plan or sketch and I know most people like myself do the same, and yet you keep harping on about Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, et al. They are commercial enterprises, I am not!

I made dozens and dozens of mods for my TX650, hardly anything on the bike has not been modified, not a single plan, sketch or drawing. And whether you believe it or not, I am not alone, most custom bike builders are the same.

People like myself who build bikes and other things in their backyard workshops are not commercial entities.

Most builds come from the imagination, modifications are planned and made on the run, mostly trial and error: Make something, don't like it, make it again. I do that with everything I make: Ride on mowers, go carts, mini bikes, custom show bikes, machinery, furniture, tools, jigs, recumbents, etc.

We're at cross-purposes Tony!

All designers do trial and error to some extent, and it's normal to select, modify and combine existing parts. Though we could, no-one on the forum makes drawings of standard nuts and bolts; we just use them. What you're doing is good as far as it goes, but not the whole story.

The unplanned approach is OK up to a point, but it breaks when complex objects are made from scratch because no-one can hold all the details in their head. For example, engines are full of moving parts that have to fit together and rotate without hitting anything, and the engine won't work unless suck, squeeze, bang, blow are timed correctly, and the fuel mix is right, and the spark is hot and long enough to ignite the compressed mix. This type of design problem is only practical with research, planning, drawings and maths. Only a BF would cast and machine a cylinder block without being certain the pistons and cranks will fit into it.

Trial and error might be OK in a custom bike business, but on its own it would bankrupt a manufacturer. They always need a portfolio of design information that can used by others to build the item.

It's OK to be proud of results, but what you're doing isn't a better way of doing engineering. It's only a small part of what engineers do, and only suitable for simple stuff. What engineers mean by 'planning' covers a blurred range of ever increasing complexity from:

• ideas simple enough to hold in your head
• slightly more complicated ideas described on the back of an envelope
• complicated enough to require formal drawings
• So complicated that multiple formal drawings with version control are required. This level becomes mandatory as soon as more than one person is involved. Multidisciplinary teams, purchasing departments, subcontractors, production engineers, machine operators, accountants etc.
• Computer support essential – high-tech, CAD/CAM etc.

In a home workshop it's not unusual to find everything from bonehead to computers being applied more-or-less on the same project. In the right circumstances they're all useful, but 'planning on the run' is only a small part of a much bigger story. Might be a good way of customising a motorbike, but wouldn't work on a Boeing 787 or an internet router.

And because an engineer is a bloke who can do for a pound what any fool can do for a guinea, it's best practice to reuse other people's plans and methods. Believing originality is essential isn't engineering!

Dave

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

Posted by Ian Hewson on 23/08/2023 10:06:29:

Boredom has taken over, I’m off to make something.

Yes, so am I.

I used to say a picure is worth a thousand words, not always true I have decided.

Pete

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I haven't been following thi# thread particularly, but got especially frustrated by having to scroll through so many photos to get to the explanation of what we were looking at. Except there wasn't any. So, thougt I, let's go to the albums themselves. Lo! and behold, a quick look at a selection of albums revealed just photos again. Not a single word of description with any of the ones that I saw at random. That's the point at which I gave up and moved on.

John

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

There is no option of adding text in the albums. I'd be renewing your optical prescriptions if I were you. There may be a lot of pics, but there is also some text describing what the pics show between the pics and other text saying why the pics were uploaded.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Posted by Tony sacc on 23/08/2023 12:54:13:

There is no option of adding text in the albums. I'd be renewing your optical prescriptions if I were you. There may be a lot of pics, but there is also some text describing what the pics show between the pics and other text saying why the pics were uploaded.

Then how am I able to add a description to accompany the photos in my albums? I suggest that you revisit the "upload more photos" page and try the text box below the filename.

John

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Tony,

I didn’t really want to get involved in this rather unseemly discussion, but I have just added descriptive text to one of my pre-existing photos.

It only shows when viewing the album, thus:

**LINK**

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=59372&p=927243

MichaelG.

.

.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 23/08/2023 14:41:04

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Oh er missus, a wedgie

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by John Hinkley on 23/08/2023 14:23:37:

Posted by Tony sacc on 23/08/2023 12:54:13:

There is no option of adding text in the albums. I'd be renewing your optical prescriptions if I were you. There may be a lot of pics, but there is also some text describing what the pics show between the pics and other text saying why the pics were uploaded.

Then how am I able to add a description to accompany the photos in my albums? I suggest that you revisit the "upload more photos" page and try the text box below the filename.

John

That is a title, not text to go into details describing what you are looking at.  If you are going to add a long descripptive text to the title, it would seem a waste of time posting here, wouldn't it.  You could do all your posts under allbums.

Come to think of it, that's what I'll do, I'll add text under albums from now on, rather than post under the forum.  That should make all of you happy.

Edited By Tony sacc on 23/08/2023 23:13:26

Edited By Tony sacc on 23/08/2023 23:23:51

[VicParticipant @vic]

Nice drill jig. Can folks clear something up for me though. I was under the impression that drills bits only normally drilled over size if it was presented directly to the work piece. Does this still apply if you start the hole with a smaller bit first?

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Vic on 24/08/2023 03:38:36:

Nice drill jig. Can folks clear something up for me though. I was under the impression that drills bits only normally drilled over size if it was presented directly to the work piece. Does this still apply if you start the hole with a smaller bit first?

Can of worms there. The experts will tell you the pilot drill should be around the size of the i flute, which is a reasonable way of doing it, however, drill bits are all slightly under siz,ie, a 6mm bit will actually measure somewhere around 5.96mm, depending on brand and country of manufacture. If you simply want a 6mm hole to stick a 6mm rod through and fit isn't that important, just drilling with the 6mmill will suffice.

I'm not that rough, when I want a good fit, I'll drill with 5.5mm bit and follow up with a 6mm drill, that way the hole generally comes out 5.99/6mm. The experts will tell you to use a reamer, but we don't all have reamers of every size on the planet. so, make do with what you have.

Keep in mind also, that that 6mm bolt is not 6mm across the threads, it will be under 6mm, how much depends on how the thread was formed.

I generaly pilot anything over 6-7mm no matter how precise I want the hole. Smaller bits also find the centrepop mark easiier.

Now there's a can of worms, opened right up!

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Tony sacc on 24/08/2023 07:09:54:

Posted by Vic on 24/08/2023 03:38:36:

Nice drill jig. Can folks clear something up for me though. I was under the impression that drills bits only normally drilled over size if it was presented directly to the work piece. Does this still apply if you start the hole with a smaller bit first?

Can of worms there. The experts will tell you the pilot drill should be around the size of the i flute, which is a reasonable way of doing it, however, drill bits are all slightly under size, a 6mm bit will actually measure somewhere around 5.96mm, depending on brand and country of manufacture. If you simply want a 6mm hole to stick a 6mm rod through and fit isn't that important, just drilling with the 6mmill will suffice.

I'm not that rough, when I want a good fit, I'll drill with 5.5mm bit and follow up with a 6mm drill, that way the hole generally comes out 6/6.1mm. The experts will tell you to use a reamer, but we don't all have reamers of every size on the planet. so, I make do with what I have.

On the lathe I'll pilot with a 5.5, followed by a 15/64, followed by a 6mm.Generally speaking the hole will come out near as damn it to 6mm, or slightly under.

Keep in mind also, that that 6mm bolt is not 6mm across the threads, it will be under 6mm, how much depends on how the thread was formed.

I generaly pilot anything over 6-7mm no matter how precise I want the hole. Smaller bits also find the centrepop mark easiier.

This is all assuming the cutting shoulders are of equal length. ff not the hole will be the width of the longest cutting shoulder x 2.

Now there's a can of worms, opened right up!

 

Edited By Tony sacc on 24/08/2023 07:18:36

[VicParticipant @vic]

I too would use something like a 5 or 5.5 drill before finishing with a 6mm but that doesn’t answer my question. If I used a 6mm bit for the second operation with unevenly ground lips would the hole end up over size?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Vic

IF the body of the 6mm drill is concentric with the pilot hole, it’s running true,  and it’s only the tip a that’s badly ground … then I posit that it will simply act as a boring tool, and therefore should cut to size.

Other opinions may be available

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:26:03

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Tony sacc on 24/08/2023 07:11:38:

Posted by Tony sacc on 24/08/2023 07:09:54:

Posted by Vic on 24/08/2023 03:38:36:

This is all assuming the cutting shoulders are of equal length. ff not the hole will be the width of the longest cutting shoulder x 2.

 

 

So, assumining you are working off a centrepop, working of a centrepop and reamiing with a bigger drill after a pilot will result in very different outcomes.

Drilling without a pilot will result in an oversiz hole if the cutting shoulders are not the same length.

With a pilot it would depend on the size of the pilot, to a degree, and the size of the drill, but the hole would certainly be a little oversize because both cutting shoulders are not cutting, throwing the drill to one side, or deflecting it. However, the amount of deflection varies with the size of the drill. a 12mm drill will hardly deflect at all, whereas a 3mm drill will delect greatly. That said, a 3mm drill, whilst it will deflect won't deflect that much because the difference in cutting shoulder length would be very slight.

A drill with different length cutting shoulders will be longer on the side with the shorter shoulder, thus contacting the work first and deflecting the drill until the other other shoulder contacts the work. 

 

Edited By Tony sacc on 24/08/2023 07:18:36

 

Edited By Tony sacc on 25/08/2023 00:21:00

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings? As he points out (not that it really needed pointing out) he is one bloke in his shed pleasing himself and not into mass production or even limited production runs but one offs! I have known a few people over the years that have customised bikes, cars, trucks and even built steam engines without drawings, it’s not uncommon. Often it yields good results.

From a brief read this thread appears to represent the worst of this forum where a post gets turned into a willy waving competition and where opinionated ex spurts impose their view of the world. The guy is amusing himself, getting the results he wants so why the need to chuck bricks?

if you can’t find it in you to say anything good, better to say nothing!

Paul.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 25/08/2023 00:48:32:

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings? As he points out (not that it really needed pointing out) he is one bloke in his shed pleasing himself and not into mass production or even limited production runs but one offs! I have known a few people over the years that have customised bikes, cars, trucks and even built steam engines without drawings, it’s not uncommon. Often it yields good results.

From a brief read this thread appears to represent the worst of this forum where a post gets turned into a willy waving competition and where opinionated ex spurts impose their view of the world. The guy is amusing himself, getting the results he wants so why the need to chuck bricks?

if you can’t find it in you to say anything good, better to say nothing!

Paul.

Can of worms opened again. Unfortunately, there are a few forums like this where everyone is an expert. But that's life I guess, without arguments and everyone agreeing, it'd be a pretty boring world.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:24:53:

Vic

IF the body of the 6mm drill is concentric with the pilot hole, it’s running true, and it’s only the tip a that’s badly ground … then I posit that it will simply act as a boring tool, and therefore should cut to size.

Other opinions may be available

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:26:03

Yes thanks, this is what I assumed.

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by Vic on 27/08/2023 12:28:37:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:24:53:

Vic

IF the body of the 6mm drill is concentric with the pilot hole, it’s running true, and it’s only the tip a that’s badly ground … then I posit that it will simply act as a boring tool, and therefore should cut to size.

Other opinions may be available

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2023 15:26:03

Yes thanks, this is what I assumed.

If the drill is not sharpened so the tip is central, one shoulder will be shorter than the other, that side of the bit will therefore be longer and bite  into the job first, deflecting the drill and bending it off to one side. The hole will therefore be at a very slight angle and slightly larger. The larger the drill, the less it will deflect, conversely, the smaller the drill, the more it will deflect. But, with smaller drill sizes the difference in cutting shoulder length will be miiniscule, so you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.

You can see this effect if you have a two way vice on your drill press, drill a hole, change to a larger drill with the tip off centre and drill, note the deflection and the shape and size of the hole.  As I said before though, the difference would be miniscule and unlikely to be noticeable or affect the job.

 

Edited By Tony sacc on 27/08/2023 13:02:34

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 25/08/2023 00:48:32:

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings?…

I started an earlier post by saying Tony and I were at cross-purposes! Perhaps the issue is confused?

No-one is telling Tony he's doing it all wrong for not working to drawings. Rather, the gripe is Tony expresses a particular point of view strongly, saying things like :

'You need a drawing to build a bike? I don't know anybody who does that. I guess it's down to visualising what you're after, and dare I say it – imagination!'

Now that's a challenge, not least because Tony implies anyone who needs a drawing lacks imagination.

It happens Tony's opinion isn't 'the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'. Tony is being rebutted because the whole truth is that most engineering isn't done Tony's way. His is only one of many techniques that engineers can apply to problem solving, and objectionable because it doesn't scale up. Teams can't work like that.

The idea one shouldn't need drawings or other help is wrong. Engineers use whatever is necessary to get the job done without imposing artificial boundaries on themselves or others. They look for alternatives, and don't believe ignorance is bliss!

Nothing personal, even though I think Tony's results are excellent, I don't care for purist approaches. If I want a plan, drawing, specification, risk assessment, bill of materials, CAD software, bought parts, external help or anything else, I just get on with it. My time is valuable.

We all know jobs often go wrong and different approaches are needed, therefore the best workers are flexible. Tony might do even better if he learned a few tricks of the trade – even drawing.

Dave

[Tony saccParticipant @tonysacc93877]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 27/08/2023 14:10:45:

Posted by Paul Kemp on 25/08/2023 00:48:32:

I am obviously missing something somewhere. Tony posts some stuff showcasing what he does and to me it looks pretty good and somehow this turns into a slanging match telling him he is doing it all wrong for not working to drawings?…

I started an earlier post by saying Tony and I were at cross-purposes! Perhaps the issue is confused?

No-one is telling Tony he's doing it all wrong for not working to drawings. Rather, the gripe is Tony expresses a particular point of view strongly, saying things like :

'You need a drawing to build a bike? I don't know anybody who does that. I guess it's down to visualising what you're after, and dare I say it – imagination!'

Now that's a challenge, not least because Tony implies anyone who needs a drawing lacks imagination.

It happens Tony's opinion isn't 'the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'. Tony is being rebutted because the whole truth is that most engineering isn't done Tony's way. His is only one of many techniques that engineers can apply to problem solving, and objectionable because it doesn't scale up. Teams can't work like that.

The idea one shouldn't need drawings or other help is wrong. Engineers use whatever is necessary to get the job done without imposing artificial boundaries on themselves or others. They look for alternatives, and don't believe ignorance is bliss!

Nothing personal, even though I think Tony's results are excellent, I don't care for purist approaches. If I want a plan, drawing, specification, risk assessment, bill of materials, CAD software, bought parts, external help or anything else, I just get on with it. My time is valuable.

We all know jobs often go wrong and different approaches are needed, therefore the best workers are flexible. Tony might do even better if he learned a few tricks of the trade – even drawing.

Dave

 

It may surprise you to know, that I have read and used plans when I was working as a.fabricator and welder, I did that for many years, however, I don't need plans, drawings, sketches when I'm working in my workshop, I have a very clear visualisation of what I want.

Now if you mean tricks of the trade from the experts on this site and other sites like this – no thanks, I prefer to teach myself by actually doing, rather than listen to someone who thinks his way is the only way and the correct way.  The correct way is what works for the job, not how you were taught by someone who was taught by someone else.  That's the problem with experts: No imagination, no visualisation, no thinking outside the box, just do it the way you were taught to do it and don't confuse things by actually thinking for yourself. 

There is absolutely nothing I want to learn from people like that.

 

 

Edited By Tony sacc on 28/08/2023 02:35:16

Edited By Tony sacc on 28/08/2023 02:39:47

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