Whatever must IKB be thinking ?!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Today’s News: **LINK**

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/08/major-rail-disruption-operators-inspect-trains-crack-fears/

MichaelG.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

[Anonymous]

Probably thinking "thank beep it wasn't one of mine". Funny thing but cast iron and railway bridges didn't mix – for example the Dee bridge and, of course, the Tay bridge.

Andrew

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Ady1 on 08/05/2021 10:03:57:

Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

P**s poor design I would guess but reading the media will not give you the facts, I like your joke about cast iron, it was a joke wasn't it?

Tony

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

they replaced comfortable trains on both the east coast & the GWR with what have been reckoned to be the most uncomfortable long distance trains ever built – specified it seems by the ‘experts’ in DfT (their last ‘masterpiece’ was the Thameslink trains) – maybe once the Gov has recovered from Covid they might get around to publishing the long awaited Williams report and appoint the arms-length guiding mind that is so required to recover from the failed franchise model and the utter stupidity of the ‘do not use public transport’ messages – which will probably kill more people from air pollution than use of trains would have from covid.

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:52

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Posted by Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:05:
they replaced comfortable trains on both the east coast & the GWR with what have been reckoned to be the most uncomfortable long distance trains ever built – specified it seems by the 'experts' in DfT (their last 'masterpiece' was the Thameslink trains) – maybe once the Gov has recovered from Covid they might get around to publishing the long awaited Williams report and appoint the arms-length guiding mind that is so required to recover from the failed franchise model and the utter stupidity of the 'do not use public transport' messages – which will probably kill more people from air pollution than use of trains would have from covid.

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/05/2021 11:14:52

Since when has a Government Department designed trains? As for the comment on air pollution versus Covid, stick to facts.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

WE really need to see the specification details , to check whether parameters of pitch and yaw were ever included.

High speed on straight lines and high speed on 'S' bend lines , completely different.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

go read about the seating on Thameslink that was specified by the DfT. Ok they didn’t design the trains but specified the seating etc (ie what the passenger judges the comfort on) on the new hi speed trains

Increased pollution from cars has been commented on by many including one coroner – air pollution in some parts of London exceeds legal limits by a large margin

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

They will bring back the HSTs soon, surely the best investment in rolling stock ever, and designed by the hated BR engineers. It can't be difficult to back fit sewage retention tanks, and we can live with manually opening doors surely. I went for a job at Derby once working on APT, it was obvious to even a newish graduate that they were trying to do too much too quickly on a shoestring budget, but what a missed opportunity.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, he might be thinking; so much for computers, CAD and modern ways.

Regards Nick.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 08/05/2021 12:58:05:

Hi, he might be thinking; so much for computers, CAD and modern ways.

Regards Nick.

I doubt it, IKB was thoroughly modern. Lots of maths plus a good understanding of materials. IKB is my hero too but he made many mistakes, such as:

• Broad gauge
• Longitudinal rather than transverse railway sleepers
• All his railway locomotive designs
• The Atmospheric Railway
• Clifton Suspension Bridge (started when he was 24, finished by Hawkshaw and Barlow to a heavily revised design in 1864, 7 years after Brunel's death.)
• Many Wooden bridges (though arguably deliberately built cheap so railways could start earning money asap, with the intention of replacing them.)
• Great Eastern sticking on the ways; killing a passenger when the heating exploded; crashing into Ireland because Brunel didn't know how to correct a magnetic compass on an iron ship; and the ship failing economically because it was too big to fit into contemporary harbours.
• Discovering the need for disciplined use of track and improved signalling on the GWR by running his train into a scheduled service.
• Sonning Cutting, which caused the government to legislate for safety on railways. Many causalities due to the passenger carriages being crushed between the goods wagons and the tender: the passenger wagons weren't built strong enough to survive even a slow collision.

Fortunately his list of successes is even longer! Perhaps all geniuses are flawed, and innovation is always risky. He was up against stiff competition too: many of the engineers of that time were big hitters. Samuel Smile's "Lives of the Engineers" is a good read.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

IKB has been in contact ‘from the other side’ to tell me what he is thinking:

Comparatively lightweight vehicle; running at high speeds; powered by an engine for which it was not originally designed … Mmmm !!

MichaelG.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

I don't think that IKB can be held responsible for another much more junior engineer closing a valve, (which should have remained open ) resulting in an explosion.

Great Eastern was bedvilled by the interaction between the builder and IKB. More likely Scott Russel should, be blamed for launching problems.. And since Great Eastern was not the first iron hulled ship, (Great Britain? ) problems in compensating the compass were not his fault. Rather, that in so many areas, he was ahead of both current thinking, and technology.

Broad gauge allowed GWR trains to run faster than those on standard gauge railways, providing more space and greater passenger comfort. It failed because of the lack of ability to see the advantages of all the other competitors. Possibly, because due to their lack of vision for their projects, and probably parsimony, they had already built to a smaller loading gauge..

IKB was undoubtedly taken in by the Samuda brothers, And again current technology let him down.

Had he been born 130 years later later, he would have had access to more modern materials and technology which might have precluded some of the sealing problems, but not that of a lack of propulsive effort.

Passengers being killed and injured in crashes was not unique to GWR. GWR used the vacuum brake when contemporaries were using the chain brake which was not fail safe.

Clifton suspension bridge was finished late, not due to lack of engineering ability, but lack of finance.

Anyone who thinks that IKB's bridge designs were bad should visit Maidenhead and look at his bridge. Still carrying trains a that are far heavier and faster than even it's designer might have envisaged.

Compare with Thomas Bouch and the High Girders of the Tay Bridge!

Look how much time passed after build and eventual destruction at Dawlish.

He might well be thinking how limited is the scope and specialisation of modern engineers.

Howard

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

the HSTs have already been broken up – some will have a 2nd life in smaller sets some in GWR as the Castle sets and others in Scotland.
They were very comfortable especially in 1st class

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Posted by Ady1 on 08/05/2021 10:03:57:

Aluminium being taken to its limits

We need to start building proper cast iron British trains again

 

I remember as a teenager visit a company in Birmingham Metro-Cammell I believe who produced early diesel multiple unit not that I was a fan but they would always take the time to show us around

H

 

Edited By Harry Wilkes on 08/05/2021 16:13:51

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I reckon IKB would be wondering why do we have to go to the orient for the design and build of trains,

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

that is pure politics – short termism in the city and dislike of unionised labour. Let’s see what happens to the levelling up in the old industrial areas.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I suppose Newton Aycliffe might qualify as being on the ‘Orient side’ of England

**LINK**

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_Newton_Aycliffe

MichaelG.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Just looking at Michaels link to the Newton Aycliffe plant, it looks like they don’t actually manufacture there, just final assembly.

Quote “ No actual manufacturing operation takes place at the site; it assembles components built elsewhere into completed trains. “

Stuart

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Nigel McBurney 1 on 08/05/2021 16:08:44:

I reckon IKB would be wondering why do we have to go to the orient for the design and build of trains,

Brunel was a pioneer using state of the art engineering to do something interesting – he wouldn't be farting around with trains. He'd have been building Tesla cars better, or have people on their way to Mars rather than just predicting it might happen in our children's lifetimes.

[JAParticipant @ja]

I have just read the press reports which are vague and sensational. There appear to be two separate failures, one of the suspension and the other of the "chassis". I am sure that we will not be told more. It is odd that the worst failures are on GWR, some of the track originally built by IKB.

If I was cynical I would suggest that unreliable, uncomfotable trains would be a good method to get passengers off our overcrowded railway. It makes more sense than building HS2 to free up space for freight.

I could go on but this is far too complex a subject and I am sure the Moderators will step in sometime. Was Robert Stephenson a greater engineer than IKB?

JA

[michael pottsParticipant @michaelpotts88182]

E s Cox wrote many years ago that hardening equipment for railway service was not easy. He was writing about diesel engines at the time, but it took time to get the English Electric engines that became widely used up to a reliable condition. The Brush Sulzers had to be derated after crank case cracking occurred.

This latest problem appears to be cracking of aluminium by prolonged minor vibration. Aluminium and its alloys are susceptible to this problem. Steel components can be stressed, but as long as the stress is below a limit their life can be long or very long. Aluminium has no such lower limit, even minor stressing leads to failure in the long term.

Mike Potts

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Al 2024 has a very high cyclic fatigue strength, but is very expensive compared to a lot of other alloys. I was told with Al made parts, it's not if it will fail, it is when will it fail. It is why aircraft need a lot of inspections. In NZ was a company making Al freight truck trailers , but had a lot of issues with cracking of the main chasis frames. It was from loads that were just centre placed like they did with the steel frame trucks. There are many stories about equipment being damaged by the vibration of the track joins on the cargo being freighted by trains over long distances. The best part is that the cracks have been detected long before any catastrophic failure.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Picture here [also available at other places] : **LINK**

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963

MichaelG.

[Author]

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