What to buy

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Haggerleases on 26/05/2019 19:53:41:

Hello all.

I am a newcome to model engineering and I have two main interests. Live steam, and Clocks.

I'm looking to purchase my first lathe and wondered if there was a useful machine that could accomplish both the build of a clock, and possibly up to a 2 1/2 inch gauge loco. I have a budget of around £700.

I've looked at the various mini lathes, the Taig, the Sherline, and the Hobbymat MD200, but the Hobbymat although seemingly of higher quality than the others, has a high spindle speed, which although OK for clockmaking, may not be as good in turning cast iron. It doesn't seem to have many (any) accessories listed either.

Any advice?

Isn't this the same question? Hobbymat, Taig and Sherline are all uncomfortably small for 2 1/2" gauge. If buying new for £700 a C3 sized mini-lathe is the obvious choice.

Dave

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

If you want non-Chinese AND the ability to make Clocks and a 2 1/2 inch gauge loco … You will almost certainly need to buy secondhand.

As a self-professed newcomer: Do you have the knowledge to assess the condition of a used lathe, and the time/ability/enthusiasm to refurbish it if needs be ?

Take some time to think about what you really want to do.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 26/05/2019 23:05:51

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

What's the problem with something made in China? You seem pretty vehemently opposed to it.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Each to their own, but I don't think we would buy much if we chose not to buy Chinese! It's a different world now, England is no longer the "workshop of the world"!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Haggerleases on 26/05/2019 22:36:35:

… I hate that I'm having to consider a piece of Chinese equipment. I understand the benefits but it really is sticking in my craw.

Ah with you. It's a hobby, done for fun, and therefore important to be happy with your tools! But rejecting Far Eastern means you either have to increase your budget or start a careful search of the second-hand market.

One problem buying second-hand is a shortage of lathes in the size you want! And, because they are getting long in the tooth, finding one in tip-top condition gets harder with every passing year. It's not impossible, for example relatives doing a house-clearance might let a good lathe go for a song because they're in a hurry. Otherwise, dealers and insiders snap them up while auctions tend to push prices up. Second-hand Myfords are – I think – overpriced because there are quite a few chaps like you chasing them, except they have deeper pockets.

I feel the bigger lathes, Boxford, Colchester, Harrison etc, are excellent value for money compared with Myfords. Large numbers of them on sale because manual lathes have been pushed out by CNC in industry and education. Many of them in good condition. There's always a downside – they're physically and electrically big and the cost of spares is often eye-watering.

My main regret is not getting a lathe earlier. Just before marriage I had an painful misadventure attempting to buy a Myford (it wasn't), and then family & work commitments kept me away from a fantastic hobby until just before retirement. Then I went into dither-mode, second-hand vs Chinese, for far too long. Eventually I twigged I was more interested in learning and making things than searching for the Holy Grail of Lathes. A big advantage of Chinese machines is the delay between ordering and delivery is measured in days (provided it's in stock), and you have total control over weight, power, size, metric vs imperial etc. But don't buy one if they upset you – I see mine as a disposable tool, which doesn't suit everyone.

Dave

Edit: the cat sent the first draft by tap dancing on my keyboard.

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/05/2019 09:54:15

[Adrian 2Participant @adrian2]

I know where you are coming from Haggerleases. A far eastern machine will doubtless do everything you ask of it .

They are made down to a price and that is reflected in the build quality. The finish and feel of the finer details can be somewhat lacking and hard to accept for some of us.

At the end of the day the machine is a means to an end (a tool) to create something that IS pleasing and satisfies the desire for perfection with which many of us are afflicted.

Adrian.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[RMAParticipant @rma]

Have a look at Excel machines in Coventry. They do a huge range and still do some small lathes. I bought one in the mid 80's in the days when they had a stand at the Model Engineering Show, and it came with everything as standard. Not sure about that now but I'm well pleased with mine.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Nowt wrong wi' Chinese; what space do you have; have you taken into consideration tooling costs, that could well end up more than the cost of the machine, as many of us can verify. If I had the room I would have seriously looked at Boxford, Colchester Student, Harrison 250 / 300 et al. Chester, Warco, Axminister often advertise 'open' days for prospective customers, if you are near to any of those it would be worth going & have a look, ask questions, try one out etc.

I have a WM250V-F & a WM16 & both have done what I have given them without complaint, remember the old cliché 'can't get a Rolls Royce for a mini price'. There is a lot of 'Tat' out there & admittedly most is from China but they must account for at least 80% of world trade, followed by, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Pakistan, India, Bangla Desh, somewhere in there is Europe, now Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, are in the market too; would their goods 'stick in your craw' too ?. Have a look at what you / your Mrs bought from M & S, John Lewis, Barker & Stonehouse, even Primark, Wilko, Pound land, look at their label… 'Made in / product of…..one of the above !. Usual disclaimer applies for all ref.

Whatever you end up with I'm sure you'll be happy with, & with what you make, after all it's a hobby, enjoy,

I'll put my hat & coat on now…

George

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by RMA on 27/05/2019 11:05:10:

Have a look at Excel machines in Coventry. They do a huge range …

.

Impressive catalogue: **LINK**

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/c6e82a6b/files/uploaded/EXCEL%20CATALOGUE%202019%20WEB.pdf

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Haggerleases on 27/05/2019 10:31:00:

… I look at Chinese lathes and I think, 'would it have killed them to put some curves in there?' …

I was in Machine Mart the other day, and just out of interest looked at a Milling machine tagged at nearly £500. There was nearly a full turn of backlash in each handle. Scary. I don't think it would be even close to being useable out of the box.

… Goodness only knows why they paint them the lurid colours they do…branding I guess.

Worth understanding that Chinese Lathes are based on Western best practice as it developed before and after WW2. Early lathes favoured curves, perhaps because so much cast-iron was used, but lathe design gradually modernised in favour of simple strength, safety, and manufacturing convenience. On these machines the customer doesn't pay for complicated moulds, awkward assembly, rigidity achieved by randomly adding weight, or hand-fitting. The resulting boxy look isn't Chinese, it's functional. The lurid colours are also European best practice! It dates back to the 1930's when it was discovered that productivity is higher in clean well-lit factories with bright contrasting colours (within reason!). Victorian owners preferred black machines and tiny windows because it hid the dirt; this is a false economy.

Backlash may not matter much. The machine you tried was probably poorly adjusted rather than worn out. But, it's usually simple to compensate for backlash, whatever the cause. On a manual milling machine a DRO makes backlash almost irrelevant. Backlash is more worrying on a second-hand quality machine because it may mean the machine is generally worn across the board. That's much more difficult to fix than sloppy Chinese finish.

These days it's really difficult to pin down where anything is actually manufactured. Because most 'stuff' can be made anywhere, it's best to manufacture wherever it happens to be cheapest at the moment, and that changes. Hobbymats were originally made in a country and economic system that no longer exists. Wouldn't surprise me to find the latest generation are still made in Germany or the Far East, or Mexico, or Italy, or South Africa, or …

Remember the 'Buy British' campaign of the sixties? Difficult to do today because most of the ordinary things of life are made abroad. Still plenty of successful British manufacturing going on, but it's high-end rather than household goods.

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Hi

I really don't want to get into the Chinese versus British debate, but if you want a British built machine that's not too big or expensive, could I suggest you have a look at the Myford ML10.

I had a friend, now sadly long gone, who built a Rob Roy, several 21/2" gauge loco's and sundry Stuart engines on one, all in a tiny indoor workshop, they seem to be much cheaper than ML7/Super 7, and most of the accessories fit.

By their nature many of them have only been used in hobby workshops.

I was always very impressed with the little machine, I also know folk who turn out superb work on mini lathes, and people who turn out nothing at all in extremely well equipped workshops with every attachment known to man!

A lot depends on the bloke turning the handles!

Just a suggestion.

Dave

PS if you've got room Boxfords always seem a bargain to me.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Basic Sherline with just a 3-jaw chuck comes in over budget at £732. By the time you have added a faceplate, 4-jaw, fixed & traveling steadys well over 1K. All these items tend to come as standard on a far eastern machine.

Good Compact 5 with the same items will be hard to find within budget and then there are all those trips to look at second hand machines that will burn up as much fuel as a container ship load. then there is the cost of second hand parts & accesories and the dwindling availability of spares to consider. Similar can be said about the U3.

Maybe stick to an old English machine that was built when we had smog worse that a far eastern industrial area. And it will have been built with virgin iron ore, at least a fare eastern machine has a good proportion of recycled scrap iron.

Having had two Austrian made Emco's before my far eastern machine the quality of the work coming off that is better than the Emcos

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember53456]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

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[RMAParticipant @rma]

I understand the resistance to buy 'Chinese' and I personally don't like their attitude regarding IP, but they only took advantage of our market when Thatcher handed over everything when she decimated our manufacturing industry. Unfortunately we won't live long enough if we wait for our industry to revive and produce machine tools again.

Even if you don't buy a product completely made in China, you'd be hard pressed to buy anything without a component made there. Cars and planes for example have many Chinese parts, so where does the principle stop?

As I mentioned earlier, I can thoroughly recommend Excel Machine Tools. Mine was manufactured in Taiwan and I think they still are. Myford are expensive as are parts and they seem to have a 'snob value' attached. I have come across people who reckon you're not a model engineer if you don't have a Myford. Each to their own of course, I can produce scrap on any machine

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Haggerleases on 27/05/2019 17:03:52:

I've been looking at a Flexispeed Norfolk on Ebay that seems to have had very little use/doesn't look abused, that's just from the pics though.

Always a gamble.

Well worth a look if you're anywhere near Bristol, a few things strike me:

• No photo of the important front side, showing lead-screw, condition of knobs etc. (May be worth asking the vendor to provide one.)
• No motor or motor mount so it can't be demonstrated running.
• A motor and mountings will have to be bought separately (more money) and fitted, including the electrics
• Few gears
• Not all the parts pictured are necessarily related to the lathe. For example the Pitch Table is for a Myford, as perhaps is the Dewhurst Switch.
• The Dewhurst Switch has no cover and may be a dud. (Not that it matters, I'd rather fit new switches)
• No chuck keys visible
• Definitely collect in person at those delivery prices.

lathes.co.uk are always worth a read and they're not exactly over the moon about the Norfolk. But it is what it is, a decent enough small lathe when new, and it might get you going.

Try making an offer. £450 is more than I'd pay, but my main objection is it's small size, and the time and money it would take to get it ready to cut metal. Lathes that can't be demonstrated worry me more than lathes than can be tested before purchase, but this one is relatively simple, ie no horrible problems hidden inside a gearbox etc.

Dave

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