What *should* a Warco Super Major Milling Machine be able to accomplish?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Are those still the poor inserts which will be rubbing not cutting.

You get more gear noise at the start and finish of the cut as you have less tooth engagement so the cutter is going from loaded to unloaded and then back to loaded which will be putting the intermittant load into the gears. This is made worse by the excessive load from the blunt inserts.

Did you watch those videos I posted about 5.30 yesterday and the knocking and vibration I got with teh cheap facemill and inserts and how the knocking and general poor cut went away with decent inserts?

Also cut from the other direction, you are climb milling which won't help.

Martin, where do you get your speeds from, The chart I have for these style of inserts (not cheapies) gives 100-140m/min for mild and low carbon steels so taking 120m/min average that is 760rpm

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by JasonB on 20/05/2020 07:07:14:

Are those still the poor inserts which will be rubbing not cutting.

Yes, of course. I know ARC's service is good, but getting new inserts same-day might be pushing it.

Posted by JasonB on 20/05/2020 07:07:14:

You get more gear noise at the start and finish of the cut as you have less tooth engagement so the cutter is going from loaded to unloaded and then back to loaded which will be putting the intermittant load into the gears. This is made worse by the excessive load from the blunt inserts.

Well it's a relief to know that there might not be something wrong with the gears after all.

Posted by JasonB on 20/05/2020 07:07:14:

Did you watch those videos I posted about 5.30 yesterday and the knocking and vibration I got with teh cheap facemill and inserts and how the knocking and general poor cut went away with decent inserts?

Also cut from the other direction, you are climb milling which won't help.

I did watch your videos, and I do plan on getting some new inserts.

Ah, I didn't think it mattered when facemilling. I'll try again from the otherside later, see if anything improves.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Jason can you point me to your video of your tests of the ARC face mills and end mill I have forgotten where they are.

Ron

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Page 1.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Oops that will teach me to read the whole of the thread.

Thanks Lee

Edited By Ron Laden on 20/05/2020 07:44:21

Edited By Ron Laden on 20/05/2020 07:44:50

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 20/05/2020 07:19:46:

Posted by JasonB on 20/05/2020 07:07:14:

Also cut from the other direction, you are climb milling which won't help.

I did watch your videos, and I do plan on getting some new inserts.

Ah, I didn't think it mattered when face milling. I'll try again from the other side later, see if anything improves.

It does not matter so much as the width of the cut increases but where the tool first enters and finally exits the work it is only using a very small width so will have a higher tendency to be pulled in and these are the two parts of the cut where you are getting the most vibration. If the cut were done again by hand feeding you would be more likely to feel the lack of effort needed on the handwheel as the tool feeds itself at start and finish.

Personally I would hold fire until you have better inserts as they will massively affect what the machine will be able to cut and how much it vibrates, I'm sure Martin's figures are based on sharp concentric tooling too.

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Sounds reasonable.

I'll get an order in today (and you can claim your commission).

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I wish.

Just suggesting items that I have actually used, feel free to shop elsewhere, The ARC ones seem reasonable good value, the other Korloy and KG-1 also work well but I'd be hard pushed to say they work twice as well as they cost about twice as much. However all of them are a marked improvement over the Banggood ones and transformed the facemill.

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by JasonB on 20/05/2020 13:10:34:

I wish.

Just suggesting items that I have actually used, feel free to shop elsewhere, The ARC ones seem reasonable good value, the other Korloy and KG-1 also work well but I'd be hard pushed to say they work twice as well as they cost about twice as much. However all of them are a marked improvement over the Banggood ones and transformed the facemill.

Just seen Ketan's post.

Hopefully my silly flippant comment above wasn't one of the (many by the looks of it) catalysts for it.

If I would have known this was such a sensitive issue, I wouldn't have made that joke!

Just for the record, it was *just* a joke.

Besides, I wouldn't care if you were sponsored anyway – more power to you if you were AFAIC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Not your comment though the odd can help prevent such things being taken the wrong way as what is on screen does not always come over the same way if said face to face.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 21/05/2020 08:11:15

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

TBF, 95% of what I say should have an attached.

I fear I'd wear the poor little fella out.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I've done a simple test of milling some cold rolled steel of unknown specification using a smm (surface metres per minute) of 40 and a feed that gives the same chip load of 0.125mm that would result from using the figures I suggested of 280rpm and 140mm/min. As I was using a 16mm 2 insert cutter that equated to a speed of 875rpm and a feed of 70mm/min. I did a pass at nominal depth of 0mm to be sure there were no high spots then passes with cutting depths of 0.5mm, 1mm, 1,5mm and 2mm. I used conventional milling direction and a cut width of approximately 80% (12.8mm). I would normally use climb milling and would not expect the rag that shows on the far side of the cut that comes from starting the cut with a rubbing action. I used conventional milling (left to right on the nearside, would be right to left on the far side) as that is what Lee will be doing as his machine does not have CNC controlled ball screws.

The finish is not as good as would be produced with a higher speed but is fine for roughing out. The chips still come off blue but would be far hotter and thrown far further with higher rpm. It's a trade off between speed, finish and hot chips flying about from a machine that has had its guard removed.

Martin C

Edited By Martin Connelly on 21/05/2020 10:31:08

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Thanks Martin.

I think my machine would shake the house down if I tried that.

The gears rattle loudly even when slotting with a 12mm endmill!

I still think there might be something wrong with the gearbox. Might have to open her up and see.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Thank's martin, seems happy enough with the slower cutting speed with I'm sure reasonable inserts, bit of vibration on the deeper cuts that is hopefully just the camera mount. The wider cut on lees example would be governed by its power but should reasonable as they are a good size machine.

Were those speeds based on what Mach3, I tend to use what is in F360 a lot of the time, certainly for solid milling cutters and just reduce the feeds to what the machine is comfortable with which is around the 300-400 for 3 and 4 flute cutters that you mentioned.

Edited By JasonB on 21/05/2020 10:59:27

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I used Mach3 for medium steel and plain carbide to get the 400 rpm figure first mentioned. A lot of tables are for maximum metal removal in industrial environments with lots of horsepower and with flood coolant to wash the chips away. Mach3 seems more suited to small machines in home workshops. This was done on a round column machine with belt drive so the noises will be different but the need to keep cutting and not alternating between rubbing and cutting is far more important with a gearbox. All the backlash that gearboxes invariably have will respond to the varying load on the cutter if it is not continuously cutting.

My pet peeve at work was with pipefitters drilling large holes in stainless pipes (branch pipes of 2"nb in 3 or 4 inch pipes for example) with too low a feed per rev on large drills and not using power feed on the big radial drill. Horrendous squealing, huge rags inside the hole and large drills with chipped corners having to be re-sharpened or replaced almost every time they were used. And don't start me on people using the morse taper shanks of large drills or sleeves as hammers to drive a drift when removing tools from morse tapers.

Martin C

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Going back to the original question: 'What *should* a Warco Super Major Milling Machine be able to accomplish?'

Motor power and rigidity are the basic limitations. The Super Major's 1.5kW motor should be plenty in a small workshop.

Rigidity is a different issue. It depends partly on the design, mostly on adjustment. Rule of thumb, the heavier the better. Importantly, keeping gibs well adjusted and locking all the slides that shouldn't move during a cut. Work-holding to minimise unwanted movement is an art and a science! For example, the head and quill should be as close to the cut as possible, because it reduces leverage on the machine and it will bend.

My WM18 has a 1.1kW motor and weighs 220kg. A Super Major has 1.5kW, and weighs 450kg. That means a well-adjusted Super Major should be stiffer than a WM18. It doesn't mean the WM18 can't produce much the same output as a Super Major in terms of accuracy or finish. Rather the Super Major should be able to take heavier cuts, ie produce accurate work faster whilst requiring less TLC from the operator.

However, both machines demand careful setting up and work best with sharp tools on suitable materials. Light machines in this class are likely to chatter. Work-holding can be a major challenge – it's vital jobs can't move or bend whilst being cut. A Super Major won't be able to rip metal like a production machine; instead the operator is obliged to find the sweet spot at which it removes metal reasonably quickly whilst getting a good finish.

As milling machines go a 450kg Super Major is a lightweight. Many swear by the Bridgeport because it's a proven good performer just about small enough to be squeezed into a home workshop. It weighs about 900kg and has a 4kW motor. Jolly nice mill, and easier and quicker to use than a Super Major. But all things are relative: in the trade, Bridgeports are considered to be on the weedy side!

So a Bridgeport, Super Major and WM18 *should* all be capable of similar results, but don't expect a WM18 to be a Super Major or a Super Major to perform like a Bridgeport. The lighter hobby machines need more care and attention and work has to be done within their limitations. Life gets easier once a machines performance limits are understood. I often wish I had a Bridgeport, not because my WM18 can't do all I need, but because a bigger stiffer machine would make a lot of jobs more straightforward.

Woe is me. I haven't got space for a Bridgeport or a Super Major…

Dave

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2020 11:54:44:

Many swear by the Bridgeport because it's a proven good performer just about small enough to be squeezed into a home workshop. It weighs about 900kg and has a 4kW motor. Jolly nice mill, and easier and quicker to use than a Super Major.

SoD: I don't know what you're smoking, but it's probably illegal. Beware a visit from the boys in blue!

My Bridgeport, with an early varispeed head, has a 1.5hp (1.1kW) motor. Later versions had a 2hp (1.5kW) motor. Some of the clones had a 3hp (2.2kW) motor. But as far as I'm aware none had a 4kW (5hp) motor. My horizontal mill has a 5hp motor, but that weighs 3500lb, so not really bench mount.

Andrew

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 21/05/2020 15:53:14:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 21/05/2020 11:54:44:

Many swear by the Bridgeport because it's a proven good performer just about small enough to be squeezed into a home workshop. It weighs about 900kg and has a 4kW motor. Jolly nice mill, and easier and quicker to use than a Super Major.

SoD: I don't know what you're smoking, but it's probably illegal. Beware a visit from the boys in blue!

My Bridgeport, with an early varispeed head, has a 1.5hp (1.1kW) motor. Later versions had a 2hp (1.5kW) motor. Some of the clones had a 3hp (2.2kW) motor. But as far as I'm aware none had a 4kW (5hp) motor. My horizontal mill has a 5hp motor, but that weighs 3500lb, so not really bench mount.

Andrew

See, I just posted in another thread about the need to correct mistakes and here I am in the dock again. I plead Guilty. I've no idea were 4kW came from or why I typed it! It's not in the specification I quoted from. Seems I've got mental flatulence again.

Dave

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

Rigidity is what you want, and a Bridgeport or any column mill doesn't provide it.

Put the tool in the chuck, bring it up to the work but not touching, then get a DTI between the work and the cutter. Using finger pressure only push the cutter to and from the work and be amazed at how many thou movement you get. That is the play.

If you get 10 thou then buy a file, even a couple of thou is far too much. A real mill will only move a couple of tenths, that is what you need to get cutting.

Look at a real industrial mill, and the amount of cast iron in it.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bob Worsley on 21/05/2020 16:16:21:

Rigidity is what you want, and a Bridgeport or any column mill doesn't provide it.

Ho hum, that rules out just about any milling machine then. Even the big old K&T mills have a column. Likewise large bed mills have a column, not unlike small hobby machines. Even a plano-mill has a column, well two of them but they're still columns. May be the comment is a sort of reverse psychology selling technique so that we'll rush out and buy the A&S universal machine, and all it's cast iron, that is for sale?

Andrew

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Bob Worsley on 21/05/2020 16:16:21:

Rigidity is what you want, and a Bridgeport or any column mill doesn't provide it.

Bridgeport mills plus their many clones have been made in many hundreds of thousands for industry so someone is not talking from experience or knowledge? I spent many years churning out jobs on this lovely versatile M/C, ideal for the home shop machinist if you have the space & inclination.

Tony

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think Andrew has it

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

Why practice being silly?

This is a home workshop forum, and the machines as used in such an environment. A column mill is the mill drill and similar mills, which took years before they bothered to put keyways or other anti rotation devices on the column.

Look at your wonderful Bridgeport, just how far is it from the tip of the cutter, through the head, down the column, into the knee then up to the vice? And how many joints and gaps are there? It isn't rigid. Do the finger and DTI test, but you won't, nobody ever does. Then you have the Senior mills, nice solid column but the table dovetails are square, as long as they are wide. This means that you can do nothing to stop the table twisting on the dovetails. This is not rigid.

Each machine has a limit to what it can do, to push that limit buy a Huron, for spotting holes and thin aluminium buy a Bridgeport. Most work is lightweight, works fine, unfortunately as a model engineer the work is far more diverse.

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Just to clarify, my original question was:

What *should* a Warco Super Major Milling Machine be able to accomplish?

… because that's the machine I have. I just want to know what it can reasonably do.

I'm not in the market for a newer, larger machine.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bob Worsley on 22/05/2020 10:33:34:the column.

Do the finger and DTI test, but you won't, nobody ever does.

Three tenths, using two fingers on the tool.

Andrew

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