What makes a quiet lathe?

[beeza650Participant @beeza650]

I was very keen on a Hardinge HLV-H / KL-1 a few months ago but ultimately I didn’t buy it because the bed was in a bit of state and I was/am worried it would be a bit small for all eventualities.

It was QUIET though….running at 1500 just a nice hum, even at 3000 it wasn’t over the top. Is that largely because it’s belt rather than gear driven?

It seems more powerful lathes (with a bigger capacity) are gear driven. Is that right?

So many lathe videos I’m seeing on YouTube have me thinking about the “neighbours” – I’m on a really dense new-build estate.

So, yup, what makes a lathe quiet please (and guess which models fit that bill) ?

An on a related aside – is it really useful to have infinitely variable speed like the Hardinge and a separate motor/speed controller for the feeds?

Thanks

P.S. I’ll post some “What’s this for?” threads if you like. Just let me know 🙂 We didn’t fully solve all the others yet though.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Belt drive helps, bigger belts can transmit more power.  Induction rather than DC motor unless brushless.  Preferably using a VFD and 3-phase.

Deriving feeds from the headstock spindle is just a hangover from the days when electric motors were expensive.

Motor driven feeds a much better idea IMHO – cheaper and more flexible. Of course you may have gears for screw cutting but that will be noisy again.  These days an electronic leadscrew should be more flexible.

My Myford Super 7 was horribly noisy when new because of the nasty single phase motor, especially on the high speed range.  Now it has a VFD and 3-phase motor it just purrs.  No change gears though as it is CNC controlled.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Yes a direct belt drive lathe will be quieter than a geared lathe and generally the bigger lathes have geared heads so they can remove more metal. I worked on decent British made geared head lathes and they were not quiet but the Chinese offerings I see on YouTube videos are horrendously noisy!

As for infinitely variable spindle speeds, I love it, that’s one of the plus points on my Warco 290V.

PS. What mystery items didn’t we solve?

Tony

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The Americans just like the Varispeed system. Downside being the belts are at least £50 each over here. I would have thought with the leadscrew engaged it would have been as noisy as all the rest with the spur gears.

Gear trains have higher losses, switching between belt and gears noticeably dropped the power on my Centec with the same motor.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

A 3 phase motor will also be quieter than a single phase.

[beeza650Participant @beeza650]

@johnhaine32865 Will have to pick our brains on your CNC Myford – that sounds really interesting.

@tonypratt1 Infinitely, and VERY easy variable struck me as huge plus too. Will tag you in the not quite solved “What’s it for threads”.

 

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

There are some advantages to being able to adjust speed on the fly, but it isn’t the be-all and end-all – there are plenty of really good lathes don’t have that feature, and a nice smooth, quiet, powerful lathe with cone pulleys is still a nice, smooth, quiet powerful lathe.

The first lathe I ever bought was a flat-belt Britannia with it’s own line-shaft driven by an enormous early C20th motor and I’ve never owned anything as quiet and smooth since.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

In an amateur workshop it’s highly unlikely that you would be that worried about how much power the lathe has.  In industry where time is money they want to rip off metal fast so more power is useful.  Also of course the machine wears out quicker.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The actual cutting will often drown out the motor/drive train particularly if doing interuppted cuts so in that case the lathe will only be quiet if you don’t use it. Same with a milling machine if flycutting or using a big facemill.

[beeza650Participant @beeza650]

@johnhaine32865 yup, time is one thing I’m hoping I’ll have plenty of so deep cuts aren’t important, though high speed probably is to get a nice finish. I think realistically I’ll go the benchtop(ish) route first. Need to figure out what’s quiet in the world of benchtop. Sounds like your Myford set up works and there’s lots of those for sale all the time.

@jasonb you’d hope so…but some of the stuff on youtube, wow, especially along with the rotary phase converter.

@davehalford22513 it was actually really pretty quiet on the threading too. The only noise was down to faults. Something weird going on with the break when it’s off and worn bushes or something in the motor for the feed. It will make a great buy for someone I think.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Line shaft driven lathes are pretty quiet.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

A lot will also depend on the mounting and room it is in. If you put a smallish bench lathe on a rattly box store ‘bench’ on a wood floored shed it will rival an Iron Maiden gig for noise. Put it on a paving slab on brick piers going down to a concrete base and you will have to add a warning lamp to tell you it is on. A block built shed, at least for the neighbour’s side wall, and 6in of insulation will deaden the noise too.

The quietist and smoothest lathe I ever used was a friend’s EXE treadle driven lathe.

[beeza650Participant @beeza650]

@bazyle it’s the garage door and the gaps and holes that let the sound through I’ve found. It’s a brick built single skin job. I’m not trying to be an angel but it’s about 3 metres from their patio doors and bedroom window. Maybe I just have to wait until I move somewhere more isolated – but hopefully there’s a middle ground.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

What makes a Hardinge HLV quiet  ?

… Mmm : The same thing that makes it accurate !

They were designed and built properly.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ here’s a little ‘omage

https://www.csparks.com/hardinge/

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It’s not like the lathe will be running 8 hours a day. Unless you live deep in the country the lawnmowers, leafblowers, passing light aircraft, more leafblowers, deliveroo mopeds with no silencer, screaming grandchildren, etc will drown it out. And did I mention those damned leafblowers.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Having owned (and restored) a HLV and owning a 10EE the thing that makes them quiet is the lack of geartrain for ordinary turning operations. The HLV has electric feed and the 10ee has a belt driven feed box. Both of these machines you disconnect the gear drives unless you are screwcutting and then they are whisper quiet. When you need to do any screwcutting they are no more quiet than any other good quality lathe.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

belt drive lathes are quieter than gear head ones, at least in the hobby machines.  You get what you pay for!

The only belt drive lathe, new, that I can think of is the Chester Craftsman. That is a 12 x 24, gap bed lathe,but Metric rather than Imperial, if that makes any difference.

They usually came with 3 and 4 jaw chucks, faceplate and steadies, with a 2 hp single phade motor.

Brushless DC machines are quiet

The earlier Myford ML7s, I found restrictive in only having a 2MT spindle. The more recent ones have a 4MT, I think.

The Craftsman will have a 5MT spindle, and should come with a 5-3MT adaptor sleeve.

If you can find a good one, a second hand Warco 600 is very similar, (Came in either Imperial or Metric form) as is an Engineers Tool Room BL12 -24 (Metric, but dual dialled) I specified a VFD for mine when ordered, But no longer available. All those have a gap bed allowing work up to 18″ diameter to be swung. Quite heavy at 300 Kg.

A smaller machine, but seemingly versatile would seem to be a Sieg SC4, available from more than one importer in different “bundles” , prices and different warranties.

Be wary of a shiny “refurbished” secondhand machine. Some might be good, but!  The paintwork may look good, but it could be worn or damaged when examined more closely.  If you go to see a second hand machine, take someone with you to help check it.  If you don’t it is easy to buy a pup!

Have a look at the Classified on here to get some ideas, of prices for used machines.

HTH

Howard

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I have (had) a brushless DC motor, toothed belt driven mini lathe. That lathe makes more noise than my brushed DC V-belt driven bigger lathe. In this case, it is the toothed timing belt that makes the noise. The most noise comes from by AC motor gear driven milling machine. It are the gears that makes the most noise.The quitest machine, besides the 3D printer, is my CNC router that has a brushless DC spindle. I could run all machines except the milling machine at max RPM without the neighbors complaining. If I run the milling machine at 1500 RPM, it is also quit enough.

When milling steel or aluminum, the aluminum profile CNC router makes the most noise even when using 3 mm end mills at only 3000 RPM. When I drop the RPM to about 1000, than the neigbors won’t hear it any more.

In general when turning steel/aluminum, both lathes operate pretty silent. If the noise is smooth, I know the finish is good and diameters are on spec. When there is chatter, the noise is huge, the finish bad and diameters are off spec. So keeping the noise down is important, not only for the neighbors.

The VMC produces only a fraction of the CNC router noise even when the  MMR (Material Moving Rate) is quit higher. The solid cast iron construction dampens a lot of the noise.

My plan is to move to an apartment in a few years. I will keep the bigger lathe, convert the VMC to CNC and use the CNC router mainly for PCB milling. In the mean while, I experiment a lot with speed and feeds to find silent settings. So far, I have found that the most gain is by reducing the RPM, increasing the end mill diameter and increasing the chip load. Never the less, it will take more time to produce the parts. Because it is mostly done by CNC and just for hobby, that is not a show stopper for me.

 

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

You worry about the gaps around the doors. Not much sound will escape through those. Lining the garage will be worthwhile but from experience with my single-thickness concrete-block workshop, might be problematical due to condensation and damp.

 

My Myford ML7 was noisy on its cabinet until I converted it to 3-phase: the noise was the cabinet resonating with the original single-phase motor. The noisiest part now is the gears and then only if I am using a high spindle speed (for self-acting feeds). I may try using grease rather than oil on the teeth to reduce the noise.

I gave my Harrison L5 a similar conversion set, and put oil in its geared headstock I found was nearly dry when I acquired it! In moderately low gear, with the motor still running fast as it should do, those two actions make it remarkably quiet for its size even with the self-acting feed on via the change-wheels. It is loud if I run it in high gear – but I rarely do that.

The cutting itself should be quiet – I tend to use that as something of a guide as well as looking at the finish.

What is crucial though is what the machine stands on. If properly resting on a solid concrete floor it will be a lot smoother and quieter than if on timber.

 

[None of my lathes have electronic lead-screws and the like. The 3ph conversions and a second-hand gearbox on the Myford are their real improvements. Besides, I am not on piece-work, and I lack the need, time, expertise and cash to turn a 1950s BGSC centre-lathe into a 2020s CNC machining-centre for no practical gain!]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

A list!

• Single-phase motors are noisier than DC, Brushless and 3-phase.
• Big motors are noisier that small ones.
• Belts are quieter than gears.
• Toothed belts make more noise than plain belts.
• Plastic gears are quieter than steel
• Plain steel gears, as fitted to most lathes, are noisy compared with those in a car-gear box.   They whine, tend to clatter, and the covers do little to absorb sound.  Change gears are spaced by the operator, and although there’s a sweet-spot between too tight and too loose, I rarely bother to set mine exactly – quicker and easier to put up with the noise.  Likewise, gear noise in my lathe can be eliminated by disengaging the banjo, except I rarely bother because I have to take a cover off.  (A posh lathe might have noise reducing gears, but I can’t name any.)
• Thread cutting lathes, and those with power traverse, are noisier than plain lathes.
• Worn gears, bearings and clutches are noisier than the same in good condition.
• How and where the lathe is mounted makes a big difference.   A flimsy stand or bench is liable to act as a sounding box, amplifying the racket. And wooden floors are more likely to sound box than concrete.  A concrete floor in an upper flat will transfer noise throughout the building, whereas the same machine on ground floor concrete won’t.  Especially if it’s in an outbuilding.  Although sound is absorbed best by mass (thick stone walls!), insulation helps.  And the further away from neighbours the better.
• Lathes fitted with fans are noisy.   My WM280 has a big electric fan on the motor and a 5″ computer-type fan cooling the VFD.  Both run continually.   The 5″ fan is loud because it runs at high-speed and the bearings are knackered.   How loud? Just enough to drown out the workshop radio unless I turn the volume up enough for it to be a nuisance.

So far no metal has been cut!   This can add significantly to the racket, especially thumping interrupted cuts, and screeching due to wrong feed rate, RPM, blunt tools, absent cutting fluid, or difficult materials.  A worn or maladjusted lathe with a learner driver will be noisier than the same machine with a skilled machinist.  Ear defenders are rarely needed though, unless you is doing it wrong!

How often will the lathe be turning?  Depends on what you do.  Even a busy workshop may spend more time thinking and setting up than cutting.   Production work means mostly on, whilst my experimental part making only runs the lathe in short bursts, far less intrusive than next door mowing his grass.   My milling machine is used more than my lathe, and it’s far quieter.   Bandsaw, grinder, pillar drill & linisher are fairly civilised too.   Vacuum cleaner isn’t!

The neighbours matter too.  A family with children make so much noise they won’t notice.   We older folk are often a bit deaf.  Worst case would a neighbour who sits on the patio listening to bird song.

Word of warning: don’t assume that seeing one quiet Hardinge means that all Hardinge lathes are the same. Ditto other makes.  Condition is everything when buying second-hand and worn lathes are noisier than unworn lathes.  Also a ‘quiet’ lathe demonstrated on a solid bench on a concrete floor in an insulated room or shed may sound like an air-raid siren in your workshop because the environment is different.

If quiet is top priority then go small.   Chinese mini-lathes (DC motor, plastic gears, no fans) can be operated on a dining table.  Even quieter, Taig, Sherline et al.   Though excellent for small work, they can’t do big!

A strong requirement for quiet is tough to satisfy, very difficult to be sure when buying second-hand.  New Chinese offers more choice, and won’t be worn: which model is the right size with a quiet motor and other less noisy features?  New or second-hand reduce the problem by sturdy mounting, careful positioning, and – in extreme cases – by enclosing the lathe.   As beeza said himself, it’s about finding the middle ground!

Dave

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Noise from change gears may be reduced by making alternate ones from plastic. If you or a friend has a 3D printer it is easy to make some and as they do not transmit much force they are adequate. Also if a beginner crashes the saddle into the end the plastic gear will break saving worse damage.

[peterhodParticipant @peterhod]

I have a chinese geared head lathe and yes, it’s noisy, but, changing speeds is quick and efficient and no electronics to blow up.

I also have a geared head milling machine, again noisy but easy to change gears.

I have a belt driven drill which is a bore to change speeds, I would have a geared head if I could.

My workshop is built like a house, with cavity wall and double glazing and it’s down the garden, not had any complaints from the neighbours. Lots of hammering and banging as well…..

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

• Plain steel gears, as fitted to most lathes, are noisy compared with those in a car-gear box..

That’s because (modern) cars have helical gears so the teeth slide against each other rather than impacting. Some posh lathes have helically geared heads – I presume they’re pretty quiet too.

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

…Likewise, gear noise in my lathe can be eliminated by disengaging the banjo, except I rarely bother because I have to take a cover off.  (A posh lathe might have noise reducing gears, but I can’t name any.)

 

The Harrison L5 had a tufnol gear in the train to the screw cutting gearbox, and any noise it makes is drowned by the gear whine from the headstock in the higher gears. On mine, the clutch rattled when disengaged too, though I believe that can be adjusted out.

Of course, the most neighbour-disturbing sounds may be the Bad Words emitted when the workpiece is accidentally reduced below the required diameter.

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