What is (Traditional) Model Engineering?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Comprehensive School for me.

Engineering Theory and Practice (posh O level metalwork)

Woodwork

Electronics

Technical Drawing

Building Construction Drawing

Physics

Accounts as I was better at maths than other options which needed more written English

Maths and English both compolsory.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I went to Secondary Modern school, with the national curriculum of the time, but I think the maths teacher my class was in, wasn’t much better than basic arithmetic, and he certainly could teach Trig. very well, but I learnt maths a lot better at college day release. I wasn’t that interested in woodwork, and only had one half term there, the rest of my time was in metalwork. Science was mostly copying off the chalkboard, with only occasional basic experiments, might have had some basic physics. I was always at the high end of technical drawing and even came top of the class in one exam. I actually hated school, although I only had about two weeks off through sickness, in the whole of my secondary education.

Regards Nick.

[Mick BaileyParticipant @mickbailey28509]

In the 1970s the Stoke-on-Trent Rotary club promoted a “Festival of Skills” to promote all kinds of handicrafts. I entered five steam engines and a pair of pistols and it was quite inspiring to see what others were displaying. A 17 year-old lad had his clock making setup on display and gave demonstrations of the processes involved in clock making. The overall quality of work from around the city was truly exceptional.

That was the year I got a Unimat SL, which cost a lot at the time. Unfortunately a month after it was delivered I was involved in a lab explosion which severed the tendons and nerves in my wrist and fingers, so I had to work one-handed for months, the affected hand and forearm being in a full plaster cast. I did though get a special award for endeavour, which was unexpected. The plaster was off for just a few weeks during the exhibition, but I then spent another year of surgery and plaster casts. The hospital wasn’t impressed by the grubby, oily plaster and  had to replace it every month. Model engineering kept me going throughout and regardless of temperature when I wasn’t at school or asleep, I was making models.

Never once had I any thought of self-pity or sense of disability. I worked around problems as they came up and the passion and enthusiasm for the hobby gave a focus.

I often wonder what kind of work would now be displayed if that exhibition was to be organised today. I went to a degree show quite a few years back and took a look at the electronics projects. What I saw would be typical of what a 15 year old would have achieved when I was in my teens.

[Nicholas Farr]

On Nicholas Farr Said:

Hi, I went to Secondary Modern school, with the national curriculum of the time, but I think the maths teacher my class was in, wasn’t much better than basic arithmetic, and he certainly could teach Trig. very well, but I learnt maths a lot better at college day release. I wasn’t that interested in woodwork, and only had one half term there, the rest of my time was in metalwork. Science was mostly copying off the chalkboard, with only occasional basic experiments, might have had some basic physics. I was always at the high end of technical drawing and even came top of the class in one exam. I actually hated school, although I only had about two weeks off through sickness, in the whole of my secondary education.

Regards Nick.

Your school experience mirrors mine very closely Nick. Apart from Technical Drawing – didn’t much like the teacher or the subject at the time.

Me and 2 other lads, we were 14 at the time, broke the mold at my school and opted out the subject and do typing instead!

No real problem with that, spending a few hours a week in a classroom of girls, what’s not to like !

[Mick Bailey]

On Mick Bailey Said:

… I went to a degree show quite a few years back and took a look at the electronics projects. What I saw would be typical of what a 15 year old would have achieved when I was in my teens.

Never jump to conclusions Mick!  The idea that nothing has developed since our teens is wrong.  What you saw at the show was the basic stuff, intended only as a taster, suitable for newcomers, and not representative of the state of the art!  Instead think MRI scanners, 2 nanometre integrated circuits, WiFi, real computers for under a tenner, terabyte storage, and the internet. All science fiction when we were boys.

I’m trying to come up with a public engineering demonstration at the moment.  Needs to be advanced, engaging, and comprehensible to folk having a only mild technical interest.  Two out of three is easy, then I’m stuck.  Any suggestions?

Dave

[Mick Bailey]

On Mick Bailey Said:

…….I went to a degree show quite a few years back and took a look at the electronics projects. What I saw would be typical of what a 15 year old would have achieved when I was in my teens.

Had you come to a degree show where I help you could have seen robots solving Rubik cubes; a novel touch sensor for machine tool setting; an on-board system for monitoring pendulum acceleration including wireless comms and wireless power; a gadget to aid electric drill users to align the drill in 6 axes; and loads more.  All done by students as their final year projects.  I doubt that even a very advanced 15 year old would have the technical knowledge to undertake any of these.  Always lots of fun to be had here degree-bashing but unjustified and counter-productive.  Are you going to tell a school leaver that it’s not worth training to be a professional engineer because it’s too trivial?

[Mick BaileyParticipant @mickbailey28509]

I’m relating what I saw myself, presented as final-year projects. I’m not “going to tell a school leaver” anything. People make their own way in life and make their own choices based on the best information available to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mick Bailey]

On Mick Bailey Said:

I’m relating what I saw myself, presented as final-year projects. I’m not “going to tell a school leaver” anything. People make their own way in life and make their own choices based on the best information available to them.

 

 

When I was at school we put on a science display for parents night.   The most impressive exhibit went down like a lead balloon because only about 1 in 20, if that, understood any of it!  The display consisted of a statistical analysis with graphs, and had to be studied.

Same problem occurs at ME shows, where an engine that took thousands of hours to build is dismissed as a toy train!  I repeat – don’t jump to conclusions.

Mick, as we’re broadcasting to the world on the internet I hope no-one reading this exchange considers your view to be “the best information available to them“.  I challenge it!  Sour grapes I say – young people today are just as smart as we were.

Dave

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Not really sure how this turned into an assessment of how smart kids are today?

I agree times have changed and the traditional manual skills are in decline as mass production now requires faster, possibly cheaper methods.  Even ship building now utilises ‘cut parts’ ie the plates and sections required to build the vessel generated from 3d CAD models which are water jet, plasma of laser cut.  However the process of gluing those parts together and installing the machinery is still very much a manual process.  Once the vessel is built the problems really start as there is a severe shortage of skilled people to carry out the maintenance, I see this first hand on a regular basis.

Maybe we are in a transitional arrangement where manual labour and skills are being replaced by mechanised autonomous intelligent machines but we are a long way from that yet.  With the focus of education on theoretical skills, the desire to put everyone through a degree course and due to the lack of example no real desire for the majority of young people to pick up a spanner there is a crisis in being able to recruit experienced / skilled people to do manual tasks, that appears to be getting worse year on year.  All external applicants are from overseas and have an impressive range of academic qualifications from universities around the world but little or no practical skills.  The other option is to grow talent by recruiting apprentices but that is a slow process and there is attrition through the training.  Those external candidates with their higher qualifications tend to stay 6 – 12m and then leave for computer based / desk jobs just as they start being useful!

This is not limited to the marine industry.  I quote that because that is what I am familiar with but I speak to those in other land based industries with similar problems.  To say manual skills are dead is to put your head in a bucket!  They may well be in much lower demand and more specialised than previously but they are certainly not dead and if something is not done to address there is going to be some very difficult times ahead until the droids take over!  Most things machinery that need maintenance are still assembled with nuts and bolts……

Paul.

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Good observations Paul. Agree with everything you mention.

regards,Mike

[Mike Hurley]

On Mike Hurley Said:

Good observations Paul. Agree with everything you mention.

regards,Mike

Yes, though I would say “Paul is not wrong” rather than spot on!    For example, he suggests “Maybe we are in a transitional arrangement where manual labour and skills are being replaced by mechanised autonomous intelligent machines but we are a long way from that yet. ”

There’s no maybe about it!  In many sectors the transition is either complete or well-advanced.  Almost all domestic appliances.  Smart Phones are made by the billion, with almost no manual input at all.  Cars are another example: where British Leyland once employed thousands, a modern plant churns out the same volume of cars with perhaps 250.   And modern cars are distinctly more complex than anything made 40 years ago, and automated production lines don’t make “Friday Cars”.   As Jeremy Clarkson puts it, “the only thing worse than hand-assembled is hand-made.”

Paul happens to work in the Maritime sector where there is a need for hands-on repair skills.  The same can be found on the railways and similar.   But all things considered these have slowly become special cases, most obviously in the limited number of jobs out there.  Unfortunately UK PLC is not going to fix the economy by training youngsters with the practical skills needed to repair ships.  99% of them won’t get work that uses practical skills, whereas in 1950 Britain needed them in droves.

Paul also says “due to the lack of example no real desire for the majority of young people to pick up a spanner there is a crisis in being able to recruit experienced / skilled people to do manual tasks, that appears to be getting worse year on year.”   Lack of example is wrong: the reason youngsters aren’t keen to pick up spanners is they can earn the same money, or more, without having to get their hands dirty trying to stop a sewage pump leaking in the bilge of a storm-tossed ship.  Might surprise those who enjoy practical work that many hate it.   Them not being attracted to practical work is good news for practical men today because now they get paid above market rate!   When labour was cheap, unskilled and semi-skilled workers were badly paid and often treated with contempt because they were an easy-come easy-go resource.   The rise of the service sector put an end to that, but the memory lingers.

And worse for whom?  Only for the small number of employers who need skills and aren’t prepared to pay for training.  Certainly not worse for the large number of employers looking for wider skills based on education, rather than the ability to use hand-tools.

Not unusual to find those worried about declining practical skills being dismissive of economics and theory.   I think all practical men should be forced to do a course on economics, because it shines a bright light on their woes.   When looking to explain job market changes, and much else, I strongly advise everyone interested in the “why” to “follow the money”.   Understanding economics explains industry’s determination to automate – machines, once debugged, are cheaper than people, and do a better job.   And because people are expensive, it’s also cheaper to make products that can’t be repaired, or entire modules that are simply replaced without doing a diagnosis.   Until the 1950s most car repairers owned a lathe because early cars were full of unreliable small components that could be touched up or replaced by making one.  Later cars progressively removed the opportunities – manufacturers developed more reliable components, and eliminated the need for many of the simple parts that failed.  Motorists benefitted, but garages sacked all their turners and got rid of the lathe.  Just examples of a much wider trend; thousands of machinists once supported  Britain’s huge textile trade, and every colliery and factory driven by steam, had them.   Now the industry itself might have gone, or modern machines don’t need simple repairs, or if a new unobtainium part is needed it’s cheaper to model it in CAD, and then CNC it.

Not sure how many machinist jobs there were at the peak: my guess is something over 300,000 in the period 1941 to 1961.  Today, I’d be surprised if there were more than 20,000, and falling.

Practical jobs do exist: construction, kitchen and bathroom fitting, road-mending etc. But even these can have a high thinking component.  Watched a programme about maintaining High Tension cables recently.   Done with the power on, so working at height on a 250kV line!  The mechanical part of the job was easy – on the ground with the power off, would take about 10 minutes to learn and do.   The hard part was climbing on and off a hovering helicopter after carefully grounding it and self, and then securing the worker to the cable so a slip wouldn’t electrocute him or result in a fatal fall.   The practical element that could be taught at a school is trivial.  The hard part is planning! That needs a strong understanding of the theory and practicalities.  Extreme example I know, but many jobs are like that today – the actual doing is easy, once the ways and means have been thought through.

My experience of engineering is that it’s a team sport:

• Someone clever realises there’s a need for summat and works out how much he can afford and what the expected return is.  He knows almost nothing about engineering – he’s the customer, maybe an “intelligent customer”.
• A real engineer looks at the requirement.  He either has previous experience or knows how to develop a design from first principles.  The latter usually requires maths and a technical degree.   This chap comes up with options and costs them order of magnitude – how long, how much, how risky etc.   On a complex project, likely supported by a largish team, and might take months or years to complete the work.   Jet fighter development requires far more effort than refurbishing a kitchen, but the process is similar.   And don’t underestimate the difficulty of doing up a kitchen:  if a fixed price quote is too low, then worker and material costs will eat the profits.  And a too high quote won’t get the business!    Anyway, real engineer goes back to the customer, presents options, and either gets the job or is told thanks but no thanks.
• Given the green light, detailed planning starts.  This is a different skill set.  A small project might have an individual capable of doing all the engineering thinking himself, more likely there will be an assistant, and maybe a support team.  Small ‘done it before’ projects are easy, because previous experience is golden.   Not ‘done it before’, needs far more thought.  The end result either way is a plan and Bill of Materials.  Small job informal, back of an envelope, and hand-on skills are sufficient to deliver.  Big jobs are way harder, requiring a professional project planner with a computer supporting a design team.  The emphasis is brain work rather than spanners, with employers needing thinkers rather than doers.   Good thinkers too – getting a big project plan wrong has terrible consequences!   A common planning mistake is to assume that the initial plan is it, job done.  No!  Plans should be staged, with the current stage fully fleshed, the next stage mostly, and anything later than that considered skeletal.  Then, in Stage 1, when practical man bounces in pleased as punch because he’s noticed those stupid academics forgot that concrete takes a week to harden properly, and so proved his theory that all experts are worthless, he’s adrift because the next stage of the plan can be corrected.  No plan is perfect, and if you want a good laugh, ask a practical man to have a go at a complicated one.
• Executing the plan requires different engineering skills again, but managing delivery is still mostly in thinking mode. Out in the real world the Production or Site Engineer is important.  Plans should say what and when stuff is needed, and maybe why, but not how it should be done, or what,  or by who.  That’s his job.  His output is a stream of work orders.   A building likely starts with a surveyor levelling and defining the site: he works to a plan, resulting in another shower of work-orders.  After the site is fenced off and cleared, work begins in earnest: earth moved, trenches dug, piles sunk, electricity, gas, water and sewage laid on, temporary hard standing laid.  They might also be responsible for recording work done and confirming it can paid for it, as when a contractor lays a tarmac road to up to the building.   Work orders go to workers or foremen, and often generate sub-plans, and even more work-orders.
• Practical men are vital to actual delivery, but their real world skills are sharply focussed on the particular.  Not good to have plumbers doing the electrics!  They’re directed within a much larger endeavour, and may not realise how much thinking was necessary to position them. Fink it’s easy, and are upset when derailed because someone cocked up the compressor and their pneumatic drill won’t work.  Unlikely to understand the big picture too, which is unfortunate.  They won’t know if their employer or the customer is on the rocks, or the whole purpose of a project has been undermined by competition, politics, or legal changes.  From that point of view proper clever practical men are often amazingly naive, perhaps falling into the trap of thinking knowing how to change a tap washer in the 10 Downing Street bogs means they should be running the country!   And people can be trained to have practical skills, often surprisingly quickly, and if really needed it can be done on a large scale.  Anyone old enough to have done National Service? 2 million men were trained to defend the Empire in case the cold war went hot, taking up to 2 years to complete the full-time course!   Not just marching about with a rifle, but leaning trades too, so their time wasn’t completely wasted.

Team game, and no-one playing it is as important as they think they are!  And the rules have changed…

Is this anything to do with Model Engineering?  Not the hobby.  But it’s important for Model Engineers not to land youngsters with a load of unhelpful out-of-date ideas and prejudices.  The key to a successful hobby is keeping it interesting, and youth won’t be attracted if Model Engineers appear to think it’s still 1954, with the hobby unwisely professing to offer skills vital to today’s job market.  True there’s some need for practical skills, but it’s on a smaller scale, and today’s needs are different.

🙁

Dave

 

 

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Just an observation.

Whilst the industrial landscape has changed I’m not sure that professional training has much to do with people deciding to take up model engineering as a hobby apart from the obvious exposure to ‘all things engineering’.

Plenty learn to play a musical instrument and some go on to form their own bands despite the decline of the music department in schools. There are other who learn how to draw and paint in later life and spend their time doing that.

I didn’t do to much in the way of mechanical engineering especially workshop time being trained as an electronics engineer but I still managed to develop an interest in model engineering and home workshops. If I was doing it for a living I’m actually not sure I would want to come home and do it some more as a hobby.

It’s possibly the exposure to the idea of it that makes the difference, that point where it dawns on the individual that people actually make working engines and the like and maybe I could too. So I guess the question is how do we achieve that and in a way that is progressive and not stuck in the past.

regards Martin

 

 

 

[Martin Kyte]

On Martin Kyte Said:

Just an observation.

Whilst the industrial landscape has changed I’m not sure that professional training has much to do with people deciding to take up model engineering as a hobby apart from the obvious exposure to ‘all things engineering’.

Very much agree!  The point is fun, interest, and achievement.   How that’s achieved is up to the individual, and there is no need for professional training unless, of course, a particular job requires it, or the individual fancies it.  Wish I had a mentor though!

… So I guess the question is how do we achieve that and in a way that is progressive and not stuck in the past.

regards Martin

 

 

 

Absolutely.  Wish I had a good answer!  I’m trying…

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

From the posts here it would seem the traditional model engineer now spend his or her day naval gazing in the armchair.

Maybe I’m no longer a traditionalist as I have been out in the workshop and just cut another notch on the door frame. As usual just tacked together for a test run with a few cap heads, no gaskets, rings or gland packing and a quick eyeball of the eccentric position. It is satisfying when an engine starts straight up as soon as you give it a tickle of air.

[Coggy CParticipant @coggyclapsaddle]

I’m not young 55 and although lossing it a bit my hair is still not yet white. My education was sadly during thatchers time when if you didn’t pass the eleven plus you were condemned to secondary modern education. Three to a book, in a crumbling school, taught only what you needed to know to fill the less glamorous, low paid vacancies that no one paid any attention too but as we found out during the covid crisis were far more vital to society than anyone cared to admit and whose importantness has again soon been forgotten.

My father was a joiner and luck for me taught me that skill from a young age, it was to be my chosen trade on leaving school but thanks again to thatchers ruinous effects on the building trade I had no hope of taking it up. So it was back to education and my second interest electronics which resulted in a skilled job and responsible wages.

All the time in the background of my life I’ve had a basic interest in classic vehicles, engines, machinery etc. basically anything you didn’t need a computer to control or a three pin plug to make work.

As many have found advancing technology changed my job role, I went from diagnosing and repairing electronic circuits to replacing circuit boards or whole pieces of equipment and a lot of button\key pressing, we older engineers called it tippy tapping and younger ones entering the field had no idea of circuit diagnosis or repair, just throw it away and fit a new part, Something some people now realise is for environmental reasons not the right way of doing things but of course that won’t change.

Eventually I gave up the electronics industry and returned to the world of wood and much happier and content I am.

Anyway my point is machining, tool making, making parts for old vehicles and engines is how I got into this hobby. I admire the skill in building a loco etc. but its not my thing.  Neither is it my thing to just get to the result having the made piece done as quickly as possible to advance the main project be it car, engine or whatever.  For me it’s about learning the skill to actually make the piece by hand, although it be on a lathe, I still consider it hand made as opposed to pressing a lot of keys and letting the computer actually make the item for me. For me there is no interest in computer controlled this or that or 3D printing of whatever.  I know its is the interest of some here and good luck to you, too each there own but how long before AI starts writing the programmes, you just give a general  outline of what you what produced or select it from a menu, load the machine, press a key and soon you have your neeeed item.

Yes, you have the item but where is the satisfaction, the newly learned skilled, that one moment when you suddenly discover a better way to produce a better result that had gone undiscovered by yourself for decades. This is what “some” of the  younger generation lack. They only want the end result as quickly and often as cheaply possible. The modern societal goals of greed and the instant gratification have stripped the younger generations of the pleasure of the making, the journey of creation is lost to them.

Building a loco or whatever should not be about the end result or getting there as fast as you can it should be about the enjoyment of the journey. If you crave the finished item to play with great, go buy one already done or play with someone elses but when you’re bored playing with the finished article go back to the shed and enjoying your own journey.

A shed filled with project in progress is a shed filled with much acquired knowledge and many happy creative hours spent.

 

 

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My grammar school had two streams, classical (Latin) or scientific (Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Woodwork, but no Metalwork) with, I suspect the former being preferred.

The Technical Colleges taught metalwork, with a view to producing the future toolsetters and shopfloor engineers.

The old Victorian distinction between “Gentry” and “Trade”

Early on I decided to be an Engineer (Had helped father maintaining the family car and my bike, from an early age) Rather than university chose an Apprenticeship. Have been fortunate to have spent nearly all of my life doing what I enjoy and getting paid for it. Found something else when the pleasure faded.

Our late son went into marketing but considered it rather “Useful, you being able to do this” when I was fixing my wife’s car, for the next day.

S I L is into woodwork, and grandsons lack the space (and finance) for any sort of workshop, but enjoyed a bit of lathework. S I L has been pleased when something of his has been fixed/ improved at short notice.   So there is yet hope.

For one off jobs (Specials or emergency repairs) and hobbyists, there will probably be a space for handle twirlers, but various forms of technology have, and will, overtake traditional methods.

The need is to get the younger people to understand how things work, so that they can see how things can be improved / repaired, whether mechanical or electronic, and develop an interest.

Often seeing examples will generate an interest.

The hobby has changed, Sparey probably didn’t have a milling machine, and will continue to do so.

Those of us in it, need to let the world know what can be achieved, (Especially with the need to avoid waste / emissions by fixing, repurposing)

Howard

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I don’t think money is the problem Dave, I can point anyone with the right skills to six vacancies right now that will pay over £50k a year with overtime.  Even on flat time basic it’s close to £50k certainly over £40k straight off the bat with opportunities for progression into supervisory roles for those with the right aptitude.  Even those requiring training are on over £30k in the location I have in mind.  Doing a quick search on T interweb and £50k appears to be in the top 13% of UK salaries and mid thirties ish around the average UK wage?

As for outdated skills, those taught in the 70’s are just as relevant today at the sharp end.  We are turning out rafts of planners and thinkers but without the doers at the sharp end in those industries that still need them, not a lot gets done and if it’s not done right the costs escalate.  Project management is crucial but in the public sector not terribly effective!  Just look at major projects suffering time and cost overruns!

Yes manufacturing of ‘consumer’ goods (I include cars in that) are highly automated but in one off or low volume large engineering projects the assembly robots are missing….  There are autonomous vessels now although they haven’t yet caught on for transatlantic container trade.  Those there are (mainly coastal) can drive themselves but they can’t fix themselves.

I don’t think I suggested that all those toiling in hands on engineering all day (or night) will retreat to their garden sheds to continue on a smaller scale in their own time.  But some do, building and restoring cars, bikes and other machines. However, look at all the introductory posts on here from either retirees or those approaching retirement that have the interest to start.  That source is slowly drying up with the reduced opportunities. My point about example is the early seeds are not being sown and that is causing issues for the industries that do need doers and are likely to continue to need them for many years to come.  Thinkers and doers are inextricably linked and neither functions without the other.

Paul.

 

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Coggy

Without getting political I did my 11 plus in the late 1960’s, failed it and went into secondary modern school – that was a decade before Margaret Thatcher…

Paul

Agree with your comments, with my background in marine engineering and sewage treatment, I would apply for those jobs!, only problem is that I am 66 1/2 now!

A fellow Royal Navy Chief Petty Officer responsible for helicopters said that the problem with “kids” straight out of university is that “they can work out the square root of a jar of pickles but can’t take the lid off”

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

As far as the hobby goes, we have to admit:

– What any of us build is very much our own choice, but the strong emphasis on live-steam seems to be creating a perception even within the hobby that model-engineering means live-steam models and anything else is a side-line.

– That although much of our projects reflect the machinery of yesteryear by faithfully copying their designs in small scale, we (in totality) also make new things that are not such models – so, while allowing for personal workshop restrictions, are our design and construction methods for the latter category equally “new” ?

Extending that, what young people want to build as amateur engineering projects may more likely be subjects familiar to them, and using modern methods they are more likely to at least have some inkling of, such as CNC machining from CAD-files; and fabricating from sheet and plate rather than castings.

On the other hand of course, newcomers to the hobby may well want to build steam-engines or mechanical clocks because those old forms of machinery are attractive in a historical sense.

Much of this thread has raised modern social attitudes towards engineering – a word that politicians and journalists seem to avoid in favour of the lazy, ill-defined “tech” or “technology” – and the loss of any practical skills; not only in the engineering trades but also in building and indeed playing music.

No doubt we can all form our own ideas why, or perhaps have professional insights into why. No doubt many reasons are equally validly although I place no value on cheap jibes aimed at one or another government or prime-minister partly because frankly, no one government is much better or worse than any other, and irrespective of its competence, each is as subject to forces beyond their control as anyone else. In a democracy it tends to reflect its contemporary society and national trends, or at least tries to.

Nevertheless, whatever the causes, there are rather nebulous signs of an awakening to this long-term lack of encouraging people to take practical careers.

A career though is not a hobby, and as others have said, most people are attracted to hobbies totally different from their work.

””””

The CPO’s observation of those whom I have heard been called “college-boy engineers” (or of course college-girl, these days…) reminds me of an incident involving one of my girl-friends when she worked in the NAAFI shop at RNAS Portland.

She recounted how arriving there one morning the staff found the power was off, so although they could not serve the hot pies so popular in the mornings there, at least they had a gas-stove so could still make hot drinks.

The ratings and petty-officers realised this immediately and took it in their stride. The ones baffled why they could not have a hot pie were the officers. Perhaps they were ones who would have ordered someone else both to find the square root of the pickle jar and take the lid off.

[Paul Kemp]

On Paul Kemp Said:

I don’t think money is the problem Dave, I can point anyone with the right skills to six vacancies right now that will pay over £50k a year with overtime.  Even on flat time basic it’s close to £50k certainly over £40k straight off the bat with opportunities for progression into supervisory roles for those with the right aptitude.  Even those requiring training are on over £30k in the location I have in mind.  Doing a quick search on T interweb and £50k appears to be in the top 13% of UK salaries and mid thirties ish around the average UK wage?

…
Paul.

 

Yes indeed, when there’s a skills shortage, people are well paid.  Enjoy it whilst it lasts!  I’ve had a series of “name your own price” jobs, and they were all boom and bust.  And folk memory remains of a time when practical jobs were dirty hard work and badly paid!   Sins of the fathers…

Even moderately large shortages don’t mean the UK’s education system should train the youth in those skills.  That Paul knows of 6 well-paid vacancies doesn’t alter the price of fish when the UK expects to have 3,263,067 children in secondary education in 2028.   I don’t know what percentage of kids leave at age 16, but 50% would put about 200,000 of them into the job market every year. 200,000 hopefuls and Paul knows of 6 vacancies, those all wanting experienced men no doubt!  Therefore we have to ask:  “is it still valid to teach children practical work in the way that was sensible back when industry employed millions?”  As I explained earlier, given massive shifts in the way work is done during my lifetime, I say not.  Definitely not!

Anyway, the education system, which we all know to be imperfect, has to do it’s best to make most kids employable.   In the past, it was sort of sensible for Secondary Moderns servicing about 85% of the intake to emphasise practical over theory and for Grammars to emphasise theory over practical.   Secondary Moderns were needed because most jobs were doing jobs then.  Grammar Schools were needed for fewer jobs, but these were broad and both demanding and essential: management, leadership, admin, science, innovation, design, accountancy, medicine, etc.  Grammar schools streamed into either Languages and Arts, or Maths, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology.   In both cases the Grammar School was only the first step – many went on into further education.

Though the system worked OK on average, it didn’t cope with edge cases – several of my Grammar School mates would have been happier in a Secondary Modern, and most of my techie Secondary Modern friends would have done well in a Grammar.   Selecting at age 11 was, in my opinion, unwise!   A particularly bad feature was the qualifications offered at a Secondary Modern made it difficult for bright men have careers – they were unqualified for supervisory roles.   Many organisations, such as the old GPO, kept their clever Secondary Modern educated technicians boxed into low-level jobs. To be in charge needed a degree, or to have progressed by merit up the management chain.  In their view, brilliant diagnostic and hand-skills demonstrated by keeping a complicated electro-mechanical exchange going counted for little.  No loyalty either: mass redundancies when the men in charge moved telephones over to electronic switching.   The military had a similar arrangement, and I’ve known many Warrant Officers, who should have gone much further.

The education system has since removed some of those faults, though like as not it’s created new problems.  Any teachers on the forum?  However, education exists to put most youngsters into a position where they can get gainful employment.  Though it tries, it doesn’t exist to handle special cases!

As the job market has changed massively in my lifetime the education system had to follow, which is why metalwork, woodwork are out, and “working scientifically” is in.  Have a look at the National Curriculum.  It is, of course, imperfect, and will have to be changed again, and again, and again.  I strongly urge it’s unwise to jump to conclusions about what’s needed, especially if those conclusions are based on personal experience rather than a cold hard up-to-date look at the big picture.  What seems sensible to us may only be a minority requirement.  After retiring my father kept in touch with his younger workmates, and was struck at the booze-ups every time one of them retired, just how quickly the organisation was changing.  After 10 years, he said it was unrecognisable.   Quite right – it’s a housing estate now!

For about 30 years the service sector has delivered more value than industry.   Yes, services  need practical skills, but not that many.   Like it or not, today’s job market seems to require a thinking workforce that adapts to new circumstances rather than screwdrivers and spanners.  No doubt that will change, but not because of our beliefs.   At the moment what humanity is doing is unsustainable.  It depends on an infinite supply of fossil fuels and minerals, and all of them are starting to run dry.  The whole world has been explored, so don’t expect to be saved by loads of new sources coming on stream.   Rising material prices will force job changes on a grand scale.  I expect today’s disposable methods to be replaced by repairing stuff and a lot more recycling.  Ironic that grandads who hate Green haven’t realised that it’s their best hope for a return to older methods;  repair needs practical workers!

Just an observation, I notice quite a few forum questions hint some members are weak on Materials Science, seeming to believe Steel, Brass, Bronze, and Aluminium are all single simple metals, when we actually cut alloys.  Thousands of steels, many of them horrid, and we are highly unlikely to work with pure Aluminium!   Perhaps Model Engineers should get up to speed by joining the teenagers and taking the exam.

Again, what does all this mean to Model Engineering?  The shift away from hands-on in schools makes lathes, milling machines and our type of working less obviously attractive.  Model Engineering has become a hard-sell.   Foolish to think that’s because youngsters aren’t interested in technology.   They are, but it’s different.  Investigate what the Maker Community are up to.  Low end is roughly equivalent to making a centre-punch, high-end is well beyond anything that can be made in metal!   They get results quicker too – whereas we might spend decades failing to finish a Quorn, they get robots going in months.

Dave

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

several of my Grammar School mates would have been happier in a Secondary Modern, and most of my techie Secondary Modern friends would have done well in a Grammar. Selecting at age 11 was, in my opinion, unwise!

Better to lump every one together in comprehensives, then, and bring down the expectations of the the more capable in the hope that the less capable will benefit ? That seems to have gone well !

I must have done the 11 Plus (though I don’t recall doing so) as I ended up in a Grammar school. Mrs B remembers swotting up to do it – also went to a Grammar school. In the time I was incarcerated there I can only remember one case where there was a change where one of “ours” went to the Secondary Modern and one of “theirs” was moved our way.

The GS was aimed at getting their pupils to university primarily (pre-selected for highest probility of being able to do so by the 11 Plus, blunt instrument that it may have been), with the annual Careers Day only having Civil Service (where Mrs B ended up for 41 years), Loacl Goverment, Banks & Armed Forces representitives present. I guess I bucked their system, being recruited into a (supposedly upgraded) Technician Apprenticeship to suit the increasingly involved requirements of maintaining CNC machinery in manufacturing industry. Still did the “First Year Off The Job” basic skill training, but did ONC/HNC night school rather than City & Guilds and excused the first year of that due to having “O” levels. There were 2 of us recruited to do this by the local Industrial Training Board, with my friend Andy also being from a (different) Grammar school. This was 1977 and AFAIK we were the only 2 – I don’t recall, any subsequent intake. We both ended up being made redundant 3 years later before completing the 4 year term – I was fortunate to have a place made available to me to finish & ended up doing 45 years of largely what I was trained to do. Andy didn’t and ended up in the Army Air Corps servicing helicopters in Germany.

Have workplace educational requirements changed over the years ? Undoubtedly yes. Has the education system kept up with those changing requirements ? I would suggest not. Employers have had an easy ride for many years not having to train staff – they have just imported trained staff that other countries have trained better than we did without incuring any costs. And look where that has got us as a country !

There wil always be a need for well trained technical people – we should train our own well and not rely upon others to do it for us.The paper today had a report about another set of tinkering with the new “T” levels that are supposed to off some way forward in technical education / training. Tinkering because for high drop-out rates and inability to get workplace placements for the practical elements required. A 40+ year technical training void since I finished and “they” still have not worked out how to go forward.

Remember the Monty Python “Bicycle Repairman” sketch ?

Nigel B.

 

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Jason

Sounds like you have a paid for or educational version of Fusion360, if not do you have a program for each tool used for making a part ? as some of your work shows different tools used on the same piece and the hobby version doesn’t provide for a tool change function in the program.

These limitations are more troublesome when using a lathe as nearly always more than 1 tool is used to produce a part. I have to add these tool changes/offsets and adjust feeds/speeds within the post processor program when more than 1 tool used in a program on both lathe and mill.

Same with feeds and speeds, these need changing for different operations and tool used, unless you change some lines of code accepting a single feed and speed can cause tool breakage/part damage and take forever to complete.

Emgee

 

 

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just the free non commercial one for me I change a tool several times on all but the simplest of parts. I just group the paths together for each tool if they are short but if long eg over half an hour run time will probably do them separately as if something is not right I don’t have to run the whole thing again.

So could easily have

Tool to flatten the top of the stock

Tool for the main adaptive

Smaller dia for rest machining to get into tight corners

Tool for final 3D finish either ball or bull ended

Then if there are holes spotting drill and one or more drill bits

maybe a chamfer too.

I will set the speeds and feeds in the CAM for each path, if they are not as the defaults I have set for my common cutters or what F360 has then I will adjust them in the CAM, eg I may run an adaptive to remove the majority of the waste at a higher feed rate then the final contour just so I get a nicer finish and less chance of tool deflection.

The only way it seems to be a disadvantage is if you have an auto changer. Anyone who does not have an auto changer will have to stop and manually change the cutters anyway so that aspect is no real loss for many hobby users. hardly any time to close one path and open the next as opposd to just pressing start to continue a program from the paid version.

There are also ways to reduce the amount of rapids which will only run at feed rate and if you play about with “non engaged feed rate” you can get the tool to move a lot faster than the cutting rathe as it moves about between cuts.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Shouldn’t the last two posts be in a different Thread? One about the Solidedge offer and whether to go SE or F360. It’s a popular topic on several forums so I’m getting confused about who is saying what and where.

 

Moved from another therad

There is a big following for models of modern big trucks and around that some earth moving equipment generally exemplified by Tamiya products. However this is well catered for by the plastic models suppliers so would it get any following. I haven’t checked but there are probably magazines dedicated to that hobby already.

While some people have been grumbling that ME/MEW covers too many railway subjects but equally would Aeromodeller magazine, or Boat World start a series on building a steam loco. The point is the growth of publishing in the two decades pre-internet resulted in multiple specialised publications and ME concentrated on one niche because the other (high following) subjects got their own magazines.

In 1950 ME did not feature reviews and advice on using small milling machines as no modellers had them, now things are different. The logical route for ME/MEW is to include the emerging capabilities of 3D printing, Lasers, and small CNC, and any other industrial process that is just about to become practical for hobbyists.

However one thing to avoid is detailed computer code that is obsolete within months and pointing at websites for essential information as they will disappear quickly. Remember that people may not pick up a project for a decade so it must still be achievable within that changed landscape.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I thought it was due to my much earlier comment about never having needed to write a single line of G-code.

Not sure where you get the Solidedge from as last two are about F360

[Author]

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