What is (Traditional) Model Engineering?

[Paul McDonoughParticipant @paulmcdonough43628]

I would agree, the hobby of electronics really has hit the buffers with programming a small microcomputer and wiring modules together the way to go, all a bit grim really.

After a very long lay off from model engineering I was persuaded back by the sight of a secondhand lathe for sale near me, here I am many £ lighter and having built a stationary steam engine (or expensive paper weight as the missus calls em) I wondered what else I could turn my hand to.

I have converted my petrol mower to Li Ion battery electric operation which whilst it is useful there are only so many lawn mowers that I need in my life. Another interest that spawned from the ability to make small accurate things was a series of ‘modern’ automatons, most of which included electronics and programming, these were made as trophies for retiring colleagues. (Just me left as the oldest now!)

Luckily I went a long to a local tethered car race event to see what it was all about and now I am an avid scratch builder of tethered cars. The aim being to get the car to go as fast as possible on a circular track. My new interest seems to have legs, in that they frequently break, require repair and improvement.

I don’t suppose it is an interest which will last for ever but it feels to me a bit like electronics used to be for me back in the 70’s, that I could design and build something from scratch that I could not have bought new or ready made.

I think Model Engineering has the ability to serve all manner of pursuits, that is until metal 3D printing becomes a domestic past time.   :0(

[Martin Kyte]

On 22 November 2024 at 20:44 Martin Kyte Said:

I’m interested in your collective opinions as to a general definition of model engineering.

In the early days interests were very much focused on current and new technology, radio, X-rays, steam and IC development and much of the writing in the Model Engineer broke new ground with the latest ideas and machine tools. Currently the hobby to some may seem rather backward looking with a preoccupation with Steam Engines and some who would dismiss new technology in the form of CNC, 3D printing etc as being beyond the pale. Others love exploring new ideas and techniques.

What are your thoughts? Have we become backward looking unlike those who began the hobby or do you feel there is interest to be found in exploring the new ground that modern engineering is breaking every day.

Best regards Martin

Well although I’m not inventing new stuff at least I can say I have explored new ground as far as subjects to model .

Played my part in getting the first model of the early Braton engine running by using new CAD and CNC to enable the missing castings to be made and the engine completed.

Am currently building a model of a Hardy & Padmore engine that uses the Southall Patent which I have not seen modeled before. Again CAD, CAM, CNC and 3D printing all played a part.

Also playing about with a Dynamo CAD again but will probably make it all on manual tools as it would be a good little project to write up for ME but will show any CNC used and am always approachable for STL files etc.

Played a part in bringing a few other new casting sets to the market and kept a few other going, CAD, CAM & CNC again.

Also made metric drawings of old designs available complete with corrections of the perpetual errors that never got corrected.

And countless other subjects that have not been modeled.

On the other hand many seem to be stuck on making dated designs that have been churned out for years ( or still under the bench) be they LBSC etc locos, Plastow TE, Stuart Steam engines or Westbury and the like IC engines.  I think this is one aspect that needs to change as with the old school telling anyone new to make what they made the hobby is just stagnating and going round in ever decreasing circles.

So maybe I’m not included in the “We” but it would be nice to see a few more doing something a bit different and sharing the designs with others. Anyone up for it?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Couldn’t agree more, there are enough designs out there for conventional steam locos and stationary engines. Something different and fairly quick to build.

When you do your dynamo, can we have an alternator version as the commutstor will put many off (including me) unless you are pinching the rotor from a commercial motor

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It won’t put anyone off. Just come in from pulling a 775 motor further apart, will use almost all of it just some plastic and parts of the can will be scrap.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Some very interesting points that Jason and others have made.

I think there is a place though for taking an old design, and building it, say for example the Atom Minor mk3 6cc petrol engine. The reason is that it’s a design that is circa 1930’s, I.e. getting on for 100 years old now, and effectively a part of the legacy and history of Model Engineering. I am not saying build it on a old worn treadle lathe lit by gas light!, but the recreation of a design that is over 100 years old is still attractive to many.

There are the classic engines that will always be popular, the M E beam engine and many of the engines described by Tubal Cain as well as other stuff.

I think many builders perhaps prefer to tread the well worn path of a known and trusted design rather than design one from scratch.

CNC, CAD and CAM can be a scary new world for many older model engineers and perhaps the investment in time, effort and money to learn this and convert their old manual lathes puts up another barrier. The younger model engineer may well have been using this in their day job and it holds no fear.

For me at 66, newly retired, apprentice trained, spent all my life in different roles in engineering I have no desire to spend hours in front of a PC learning a 3D or 2D software package (did enough of that when I was working!). Though I admire the efforts of those that create fantastic drawings.

Is this thread about attracting new blood into model engineering? The fact is that model engineering is not just about building models so therefore the title “model engineer” is itself perhaps misleading and puts newbies off?

Good thread though and a rare thread that has not descended into an argument!

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Plenty still in work don’t learn new techniques when retirement is in sight.

We had one chap in the mechanical workshop at the Lab who never moved to co-ordinate drilling and stuck to spotting through. Even the boss (now retired) never really got to grips with Solidworks and certainly never did anything on the HAAS mill. The younger members of the workshop took to it all like ducks to water.

In a home workshop environment often when someone gets established and can do pretty much everything they need to do the investment in CAD/CAM can have too big an overhead to make it worth the effort unless it’s for the interest factor.
I do think people in that situation should not try and talk others (especially youngsters) out of it though.

Im pleased in the response to this thread. It was supposed to be a kind of where do we go from here kind of question. Bit of market research if you like.

regards Martin

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Even tho’ I’ve not got a 3D printer, as long as Jason’s article has a drawing so I could make it in ally I’m happy. If the required files can be downloaded (GitHub?) I could always get someone else to print it. No different in my view to buying castings. It might even prompt me to get modern and buy one ( and learn how to use it), and I’m 74, so must qualify as one of the geriatrics

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

It won’t put anyone off. Just come in from pulling a 775 motor further apart […]

Not at all put off,  Jason

… I look forward to seeing the end result.

MichaelG.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Re. ‘Same ‘ol published drawings’..

– it is true, but I think for those of us who are still refining our efficiency at banging parts out, it’s ‘an easy way out’ to maximise machining practice out of the ‘budget’ of time available for getting into the workshop – but yes, the ‘standard’ selection makes me feel a bit jaded, I’ve abandoned a project before now because I once I had started building it, I realised I really disliked it 😊.

If I ever find enough time to get something into the kind of shape that others will understand, I certainly don’t mind sharing it..

Is there any interest in starting a thread to discuss model designs; doesn’t have to be ‘ready to go’, just chatting about ideas might give some inspiration..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Go for it

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

Whilst not exactly on topic I believe that the following is not exactly off topic

Uri builds a rose engine

Frank C.

also this thread was about to fall of the bottom of the page and I wasn’t finished reading

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Not a Rose Engine in the conventional style, more of an ornamental lathe as he sort of agrees at the end. Nice to see a Deckel in use if not actual die sinking.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thank# for that link, Frank C.

He conveys a lot of information, in an enjoyable style !

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

We have the same problem of lack of interest amongst youngsters here in France.  We do have a national association of volunteer groups called “L’Outil en Main” (the tool in the hand) which has the aim of introducing children from the age of nine to manual, craft and heritage trades.  Our local group advertised an open day, so I went along with the idea of offering my assistance with ME and horology related things.  When I arrived there I found just three people, two setting up a wood lathe for demonstrations and the secretary.  While I was chatting to them not one single person turned up and the secretary told me she had contacted all the schools in the area and none of them expressed any interest.  I left them my contact details and haven’t heard from them since.  What can you do?

Russell

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Sad tale Russell. Do they have Men’s Sheds in France? Ours only does woodwork owing to lack of space for more machines but is very popular.
There is a local group called ‘Who let the dads out’ that provides activities for dad + small child to give the mothers Saturday morning off. Once a month the Shed go along with two traditional style woodwork benches (pint sized) and do little projects with them. Sowing the seeds.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

Sad tale Russell. Do they have Men’s Sheds in France?

I haven’t been able to find any.  There used to be a Makerspace or FabLab in Perpignan for amateurs, but that has gone, probably as a result of COVID. The only other one is attached to a university school and only open for their students.

Russell

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I wonder if the “Repair Cafe” is a route to introducing people young and old, watching the application of practical skills and from there wanting to learn practical skills?

I belong to my local group in Bury st Edmund’s and we get loads of stuff bought in for repair, parents accompanied with their children sometimes watch the repair being done.

Interesting spending time observing my grandkids esp the 7 yo grandson, at that age I was glueing mainly my fingers together will polystyrene glue whilst attempting an airfix kit. This led to model railways, control line planes with small diesel/glowplug engines. This led to me wanting to make a Ransom Weaver 1cc engine at school during my last year.

I never completed it due to lack of experience but it was fun to make some bits and use a lathe. Probably on reflection a simple oscillating steam engine would have been easier!

That led to an apprenticeship….

So rather than get youngsters to make a tap holder (whilst a useful tool) for example, maybe help in repairing their bicycle or a simple easy to make model plane.

The key I think is not CNC, what size lathe, HSS or tipped tools etc etc, but gaining some hands on practical hand skills that result in a rewarding experience having fixed or made something. It’s the spark that is needed, the fire comes after. “Latheing” is later down the line…

Incidentally both my grandfathers were very practical me, one a forester the other a motor mechanic. My dad however had no practical skills at all, in common with so many people these days.

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

“Letting a teenager turn down a redundant knitting needle and then use a Die to cut a thread on it really excites them!”

Too late. Get them at 7 or 8 years of age. That’s where most of our lifelong interests start to crystallise.

However, here’s another thing to think about. If you can remember a mentor from around that time in your life that had a significant impact on your life as regards the hobby we enjoy, things I’ll bet that you remember them as being are patient, kind, understanding and probably with some humility, not only as regards technical skill but also in a human interaction (they were aware that there was a lot of wisdom in the world that they had yet to discover and mostly  never would).

Reading this thread, only a very few replies have given me the impression of the kindly white haired old men who would answer questions endlessly and patiently guide their young charges with positive encouragement and gentle nudges in the right direction that I remember from my youth in the 1970’s.

Anyway, on another point, I’d also bet that whilst the numbers of model engineers/hobby machinists in the UK has fallen, probably drastically when talking per capita, I suspect that the number of men beavering away in sheds with their ML7s in the mid 20th century is vastly overestimated. This idea that in the 1950s or 60s you couldn’t pop out into a suburban back garden and chuck a brick without hearing, “Oi! I was turning a precise taper and you made me scrap the part!” seems infeasible to me.

All hobbies have their hey-day (and were unlikely to be found outside the very financially comfortable much before the beginning of the last century) and ‘model engineering’ may well have had its but as our American cousins say “whaddyagunnado”.

Nobody ever saved a species of ‘dying pastime’; they just go extinct when the environment they thrived in is gone.

[Mick BaileyParticipant @mickbailey28509]

I’m thinking back to what motivated me to take an interest in model engineering. There wasn’t any big influence that I can think of early on, and our domestic toolkit consisted of just a few household hand tools. I was an avid reader and in 1968 my dad bought a book that had an article on how to make an electro magnet. Whilst I couldn’t build it to the exact design, I had a go with what I could put my hands on and it worked. My next project was to build an electric motor. Despite a lot of difficulty and trial and error (with no family support) It ran, and I can remember clearly the exact moment and the feeling I had at the time.

In the last year of Junior school, at the time I was taking my 11-plus, I had got the boiler constructed and some parts made for an oscillating steam engine. The boiler was the brass barrel from a foot pump and the piston cast in lead directly in the cylinder. This project ran aground due to lack of skill and tools, plus no encouragement from anyone to motivate me.

When I went to high school I thought there was a chance of finishing the engine and move onto some exciting projects. No such luck. The first job was to produce an aluminium name tag, stamped with my name. Depressing. The next was to make a poker, then a tin plate scoop and so it went on. I completely lost interest in my engine but took it in to show my metalwork teacher.

He said the class all had to make the same thing and I couldn’t skip any of the tasks to advance myself. He did say though that he’d create a metalwork club after school hours, so myself and two other pupils became regulars with a three-hour slot every Thursday. I got to use the lathes and pillar drill, plus any other tools I wanted and got pretty much one-to-one tuition. The engine got finished, but it ended up with a replacement silver-soldered copper boiler and proper machined parts. Then followed a more ambitious engine of my own design. I spent more and more time at home in the 6’x8′ shed and despite not having a lathe, managed to turn parts in a Wolf power drill mounted horizontally in the vice. I got really proficient at this and could turn small flywheels and make small parts for engines.

As an early Christmas present when I was 13, I got a paraffin blowlamp after pestering my mum and over the school holiday made a ‘marine’ power plant with a brazed steel A-frame engine (still oscillating!) and solid-fuel fired vertical boiler and displacement lubricator. To this day I never once achieved the satisfaction I had with that model. It ran supremely well and was all my own design – I dearly wish I still had it.

My two friends also advanced through the metalwork club: One made a quite exquisitely crafted flintlock pistol from drawings and with the cooperation from our chemistry teacher got hold of the chemicals to do the browning of the metalwork. All the parts were case hardened and it looked impressive. The other friend built a freelance 3-cylinder radial oscillating engine.

The school had Model Engineer magazine on subscription and I’d noticed that nobody read it. It was delivered, then put in a pile in a cabinet. I asked if I could have some to take home, so then had lots of reading material and this opened up a whole new world of possibilities. I read and re-read construction articles on any subject and developed a passionate interest in model engineering.

I think there were too many barriers to overcome with my limited home environment, and if it had not been for the metalwork club I would have dropped metalwork as soon as I could – everything was banal and rather rudimentary. Despite there only being three pupils in the club, we were all regulars and our wonderful metalwork teacher Mr Beech gave up his own time to keep the workshop open and allow us the freedom to do pretty much what we liked. I owe him a lot and he set me on the path for many years of model making, engineering, electronics, woodwork and much more.

 

 

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Determined or what Mick!!!

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Sounds like Mr Beech was one of those rare inspiring teachers.

I had a similar experience at my secondary modern school, a certain Mr Tony Towers our metalwork teacher now sadly no longer with us. We did have to do some mundane projects but they did allow us metal bashers a chance to make a copper ashtray, toasting fork, a bracket for a spade and so on (I still have them!).

Mr Towers allowed a very small group of us at lunch time or times where the workshop was not used to concentrate building our own stuff.

I guess that Mick and I were fortunate to even have a workshop at our schools that had lathes and drilling machines, maybe that’s part of the problem, most schools don’t have anything like this now.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Lets not forget that Secondary Moderns were supposed to turn the less academic kids into machinists or plumbers in the cities, rural ones got farming including livestock.

 

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Read hadn’t passed the 11 plus rather than less academic. Something of a less than perfect filter.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Dave mentioning Secondary Modern schools reminded me that in Bath, where I was brought up, we had the full set: Grammar, Technical, and Secondary Modern.  The Technical School was supposed to educate bright boys and girls with engineering aptitude, but it closed in my teens, and no-one I’ve met since knew Technical Schools existed, let alone attended one.

Anyone go or know why they never caught on?

Dave

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I went to a Technical High school. This followed attending a public school which was absolute rubbish, obsessed with Latin, sport, religion and pointless rules. It was decided to be mutually satisfactory if I went elsewhere.

The Techs were supposed to be equivalent to Grammars, but more, well, technical. I resisted going to the local Grammar, since it seemed to be a bit too close to the same sort of nonsense as public school. The Tech seemed a better bet.

I was soon to find that good old British snobbery had cast its baleful influence. The Tech had an institutional chip on its shoulder, perceiving itself as of lower status than the Grammar, so if you could spell your own name you would be pressured to take ‘higher’ status subjects, Technical drawing? No you must do economics (almost as big a waste of time as Latin, Sport and religion), and as for metalwork/woodwork – not a chance. In hindsight, it probably wasn’t bad by the standards of the day, but there was always an atmosphere of second best-ness.

I suspect that this attitude was universal, and Techs pushed hard to be re-invented as Grammars, in much the same way, and for the same underlying reason, as Polytechnics metamorphosed into universities.

[Author]

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