What is (Traditional) Model Engineering?

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Personally I left comprehensive school with an O level grade B in metalwork,  having been taught workshop practice and very basic machining in the 1980s.

Schools no longer have metal work or wood work shops as far as I’m aware.

But my passion for mending things came from well before then,  a grandfather who had me help him repair bits of his old cars because his hands were too big and a father who was a Hydraulics fitter at the pit who brought home Gullick Dobson brochures for me to read.

I can’t say if it was born into me or sparked by my exposure to tinkering, but I have always been fascinated with machinery and especially miniatures.

After a six year apprenticeship as a motor vehicle mechanic I changed horses for 30 years of law enforcement.  When I retired I went back to engineering and taught myself how to operate lathes.mills, etc.

I tried several model clubs but the be honest found them pretty closed and unwelcoming. We also have a full size heritage railway nearby and I approached them to ask if I could volunteer and help with engineering work. I was told to grab a shovel and start shifting ballast, my skills as an engineer were not needed as they had all the experience they needed. The whole place is now shut down due to mismanagement and misappropriation.

I don’t have kids but from my limited exposure to them I don’t see a great deal of awe when they see machinery. They seem to relate only to things they see on tik tok and the like. Things that would have grabbed my attention when I was young leave kids cold these days.

All told, I don’t think that loco building will sustain the hobby. I can’t answer the question of how model engineering will carry on. But having driven through Sheffield on Thursday and pointed out all the derelict and demolished engineering firms to my wife I can’t see a bright future for hobby engineering when this country has so little actual engineering going on.

We are supposed to be getting a new engineering facility in south Yorkshire,  building artillery and shells. Looks like if we want to progress engineering we need good war……

Which unfortunately looks more likely than ever in the current climate.

[Plasma]

On Plasma Said:

[…]  Looks like if we want to progress engineering we need good war……

Which unfortunately looks more likely than ever in the current climate.

Even the war-mongering has become increasingly ‘Cyber’ over recent years

MichaelG.

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

Even the war-mongering has become increasingly ‘Cyber’ over recent years

 

Yes Michael you are correct. Cyber warfare can hurt us without any bloodshed or even boots on the ground.

But we still insist on killing each other to settle our differences.  So machines to do that will be required until we find another way.

There is nothing that drives progress better than conflict. Most of our major innovations came to improve our chances of winning wars.  Didn’t they spend more money on the manhattan project than on the whole automotive industry to achieve the huge bang?

We live in perilous times, from conflict to climate change. Quite how the next few decades will unfurl I cannot imagine. I’m just glad I didn’t have kids, as I don’t think the future is particularly secure.

 

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

I wonder if the demise of younger people attracted to model engineering is the same as in amateur radio?

Years ago lots of radio kit had to be built, ready made stuff did not exist or was too expensive, and anyway the fun was building it. Is there an analogy with Model engineering?

Slightly off topic…

Many years ago during my HNC electronics our class were given a bag of bits and a recent article in one of the electronic magazines that was available in WH Smith. The objective was to build it to the design and find ways to improve it. A total of 5 were built, not one of them worked correctly. I thought at the time an amateur “lone wolf” in a shed making this gadget would end up out of pocket, demoralised and probably looking to try another hobby…

Agree with SOD and Jason’s above though. It does seem we need to look at the German model engineering world and try and change this obsession the UK model engineers have of boring countless articles of model choo choo building, fantastic though they are to look at.

 

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Following on from Jason’s earlier post.  The St Albans Model Engineering Society earlier this year was a very good all round show, with something for the youngsters right up to us grey haired old chaps.  I shall certainly pay it a visit next year.  I have suggested they try and include some LEGO Technic next year to try and inspire the youngsters (hopefully something a bit more useful than Harry Potter, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc).

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If the hobby is not to die, it has to attract younger folk.

That can be difficult,

1) X box and similar gadgets, giving immediate (But lasting?)satisfaction

2) Once married, with a family, H P commitments, Mortgage etc prbably leaves little, if any, spare cash to set up a workshop. I hankered after a lathe for years, but was at least 40 before I acquired one.

Our Grandsons are interested, but lack the space, in their accommodation, even if I funded a machine.

3) There has to be reason to be attracted to the hobby, more than awe at what can be produced.

Currently, together with a friend (A relative newbie) we are being asked to help a charity (When machines have been donated) which will be open to all, but aimed at promoting mental health by having a positive  end product that can be seen and used, to give confidence and self esteem.

Hopefully, this weill encourage into the hobby, the new blood that is neded.

Many of us are retired, so won’t be around for ever, so need to bring in new menbers, by what ever means.

Howard

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Unfortunately I beleve it has pretty much had its day once the oldies like me die off. Things change, and in the same way that people used to spend hours & hours doing Marquetry, Embroidery, Stamp collecting etc etc because there was nothing else to do to fill your time. (I appreciate there is still a small minority of highly skilled people who still do suchlike to a very high standard)

Young people have so much else to attract them these days, and apart from a few, really can’t see the benefit of the traditional hobby for its own sake. As mentioned earlier – some use newly learned skills with engineering to support other interests, like motor cycles and suchlike, which in my opinion is good in that it does keep skills alive.

Personally, I have now effectively ‘retired’ from model engineering, and disposed of all of my kit pretty well. Sad in some ways but I just ran out of interest in making ‘another’  model that none of the family had any interest in, and apart from that I wasn’t coping so well with the cold workshop any more!

I still keep an interest though, and always read the ‘new replies’ here

Regards Mike

 

[Howard Lewis]

On Howard Lewis Said:

 

Many of us are retired, so won’t be around for ever, so need to bring in new menbers, by what ever means.

Howard

Sadly Howard, it’s not just Model Engineering, but many other situations.  For example:  Our Scout Campsite crew and the volunteers at our local Country Park are all retired.  I guess it’s because we have hours to give, particularly mid-week, while the many of the younger working fraternity don’t, but spend the weekends shopping, running their kids here there and everywhere, etc.  We realy struggle to recruit young blood (and keep it).

 

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

martin, I assume this thread relates to the SMEE and moving forward?

If so then a recent article in MEW suggests to me that the SMEE themselves are behind the times and need to get upto date before they can attract new blood who want to use the latest tech.

The fact that none in the SME “Digital Group” had never tried thread milling is a worry. The article that followed about working out g-code and experimenting until a thread could be cut was long winded and out of date. People who are  a bit more up to speed would simply use the nearest CAM to produce the path and a thread mill to do the cutting and have their finished part before you could read to the end of the first page of the article.

It was this same approach at a ME show when SMEE members were faffing about trying to do a simple operation on a Firefly engine that put me off the idea of CNC as I could have done it quicker manually and I did not accept the first machine I was offered by the late JS. Now I have still never written a line of G code but can happily produce complex 3D parts on my CNC but it was certainly not thanks to the SMEE.

You may well be right, SMEE is in the same position as the rest of us, however the first step on the road is being realistic and changing direction. At least we have a digital group.
Evolve or go extinct to put it bluntly.

regards Martin

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I wonder if the wrong age group is being considered when the subject of new blood is being discussed. Most here have assumed under 20yrs old but should you be looking at the those in say their 50s?

Possibly the kids have moved out and are paying their own way, mortgage paid off and maybe easing off work a bit. Thes eate the people who may have the funds and time and are looking to take up a hobby. Mat not be “model Engieering” as we know it but they may buy a lathe or mill to support other hobbies so now that they have the machine they will want to know how to use it and could even be talked into trying some of the more traditional ME subjects.

Though those subjects need updating to suit them. I’ve mentioned metric already but as many will have a typical 7x$$ mini lathe then the subjects need to be ones that can be built on them not the typical offerings that need the gap of the umbiguous Myford to accomodate things like the flywheel.

Also if money is an issue then forget the usual casting route, fabrication and cutting from solid are cheaper often by a lot and you don’t get the problems of casting faults that put people off. Couple of examples. I just priced up a cylinder and associated parts from Stuart at £103, fabricated £20. That 775 Dynamo £30 fabricated or £307 from Stuarts. You only need a couple of savings like that and you can buy a milling machine.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

I think Jason is right.  The new intake is more likely to come from early retirees or those approaching retirement that may have more disposable income to support an interest.

Taking my limited family circle none of the four “son in laws” have a great deal of practical acumen having come from a generation that were not taught any hands on practical skills at school.  They wouldn’t recognise a machine tool if they fell over one and even struggle to identify the correct hand tool for the correct job!  None of them come from backgrounds where any of their family worked in a practical or manual skills occupation, so they have had no example of exposure to such skills.  One of them (maybe worryingly) is a D&T teacher now.  He did some kind of aeronautical engineering degree and proclaimed himself an engineer but had to get me change the bulb in his reversing light as he couldn’t take the lens off and didn’t own a screw driver to take out the screws.  His partner (my daughter) fitted a new set of taps to her kitchen sink.  None of them currently would consider making things or even maintaining things as a hobby, they usually just pay someone else to do any maintenance or repairs.

SOD is right that the world is changing and breadth and depth of practical skill is reducing and that may be better for economics because when nothing is repairable you have to buy a new one – great for manufacturing – not necessarily great for depletion of resources and energy usage though.  God forbid there is another global conflict the current “easy and plentiful” supply of “stuff” will be interrupted and with no one around to fix the unfixable what will life be like then?

If you look at the majority of “introduce yourself” posts on here, they come from just the demographic Jason suggests.  Currently there is around 63 million likely candidates that may reach that stage!  As that figure was only around 50 million when I were a lad, so barring world events likely to be ever increasing – there should be a plentiful supply!

Paul.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I think the 50’s age group is probably the most fruitful but seeds need to be planted in the youngsters for harvest later on.

Couple of years back I took 2 great nephews to MMEX and they were taken on a ride round the field by a lad their age on his traction engine trailer. The three of them chatted away with great interest. That’s the way to plant seeds.

On the subject of grey heads at shows, it’s been like that as long as I can remember. The point is they are always the next generation of grey heads.

regards Martin

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Just a comment, for what it may be worth.

I recall a Mag from the late 40/early 50,s, I think, which was called The Engineer, and seemed to be aimed at serious craftsmen, not Model Makers. In one issue there was an item about a group of old craftsmen sitting around in  their “Den”, trying to figure out how to pay the rent on the shed and how to attract young people to the hobby.

The came up with different ideas and then looked to the “Oldest Member”, who suggested that they invite along a few young lads and teach them how to file and how to mark out, and such, not too much, just something simple. You can imagine how well that would go down with kids ! I laughed to myself as I read it [I was just about starting to work myself ] I think we all know how well that worked out. No young lad these days is going to spend his life standing at a machine when there are better ways to make money, never mind spending his life making steam engines.

As someone else said, the hobby is made up of old men [like me ] playing around, just putting in time. I dont notice many young guys lining up to join us, do you ?

 

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

‘back in the day’ before TV created couch potatos the bloke in his shed was building ” 1/2″ and 3 1/2″ gauge and 1″ traction engines which could be transported in the sidecar. There was even a specific model yacht class created to fit under the seat of a tram to be transportable. This was cheaper and only needed small machines.
Now there is a growing interest in G1, 16mm, G-scale, garden scales that are cheaper, easier to build, can be more modelling than metalwork, and now can be 3D printed. Children relate to these scales and fathers like the opportunity to play with their children. Sometimes the parent then gets interested in larger scales if encouraged in the right way. St Albans MES is promoting this route also offering the chance to drive a larger engine.
Children also like ride on railways with their parent/grandparents and again it is an opportunity to make contact. Exeter DMES is getting a lot of interest via the monthly open days. Again offering the opportunity to get involved and also have workshop lessons to fill that gap.

One problem is youth mostly cannot travel far. The majority of the country is not close to a ME Club. I grew up in a small isolated village and never new the ME magazine existed until my second year at university and that the uni city had a ME club until after finals.
My schools, like now, had zero metalwork and only grudgingly offered woodwork as an extra curricular. I took a science degree because I was never told computing or electronics degrees existed and first saw a metalwork lathe when I got a job in an electronics company based on my hobby knowledge not my degree.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

In an attempt to get away from the specific and more towards the general could I suggest that human beings are fundamentally creative, like solving problems and delight in doing something no-one else is doing. Maybe these are clues as to direction? I ignore the comments that ME is dead in the water. They may be right but that way is just giving up. I do think that the next generation will want to plough its own furrow even if history lends interest and context.

My take on ME would perhaps be :-

Making something that didn’t exist before I made it.

Solving problems as to doing it.

Learning something about how the world works.

regards Martin

 

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

When you look at those videos of the German model show, models are working. I think that is one of the key things.  People want to see something working not a static exhibit.  We need to get away from the multiple health and safety issues.  Yes it might be hot, it might produce steam but  that’s the interest.  Put a warning notice to that effect.  Once you have learnt its hot you wont touch it again.  Many years ago a friend taught his daughter that flames were hot.  Under controlled conditions he let her put a fingers near a candle flame.  She found out what hot meant.

Bonfire night in the village has now lost all interest for me because of health and safety.  When you have to stand behind a fence 50 yards away and cannot feel the warmth, whats the point.  I am quite capable of deciding how close to get.

It was a great shame that at the recent Midlands Model show we could not run our model IC and steam models.  As a youngster I had Mamod models and I’m sure I burnt myself on more that one occasion but it did not stop me.  You have to learn what is safe and not safe yourself.

We had a small craft/makers show in our local village hall a few weeks ago.  I took along a G1 loco I had 3D printed, a Redwing model (static) and a Robinson Hot Air engine (running) and had lots of interest from young and old alike.

As a result of this I now have an 1 1/2″ Allchin to finish.  Made by one of the visitors grandfathers, but not finished before his passing.  One of her comments was ” did not know anyone was interested or doing anything like this now”.

Perhaps we need more mini local village/community type shows.

Colin

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My friend and I are certain that showing, and letting youngsters havea go (VERY carefully supervised) will plant the seed of making things.

Letting a teenager turn down a redundant knitting needle and then use a Die to cut a thread on it really excites them!

They may not join immediately, but might enjoy watching / helping in a workshop, so that when they have the space and money they may set up their own workshop, having acquired the skills earlier.

It is likely that the early retirees in their 50s will be fruitful source of newcomers, they just need to be made aware of what can be done, and how to do it.

They might well be overawed, and put off by a 5″ gauge Pacific, or a 4″ Showman’s engine, but showing them how to do simple jobs, like making a few simple tools, will give them confidence, and go towards equipping then for bigger jobs.

Making a Tap Wrench, or a screwdriver handle will lead to better things.

We need to get them walking before expecting them to be world class sprinters in the first month.

They need to take the first bite before trying to eat the whole elephant

Howard

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I am very lucky in having an 8 year old grandson who is a job to get out of the workshop but as Howard says the safety thing makes it very tiring looking after them whilst not denting their enthusiasm .

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with Robert about the radio and electronics magazines, which were very informative back in the 70/80’s when I used to take them, and also the supply of components from many suppliers, and I think they started to wane mid 90’s.

Regards Nick.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

“Making a Tap Wrench, or a screwdriver handle will lead to better things.”

Good grief! That’ll put them off straight away. What relevance does this have to the world they are living in? Creating a 3d model and turning it into a 3d print is something they are probably already doing.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Agreed and that is why I said not tools early on. Why not learn on a simple part of something you actually want to make.

Far better for the guy wanting to repair bikes to start with a simple spacer, replacement screw, etc  Or the kid who has just crashed his RC car and wants a spare part to make it. All of which will teach them just as much as those basic tools which they can probably buy for less than the material cost assuming they don’t already have them.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

… All of which will teach them just as much as those basic tools which they can probably buy for less than the material cost assuming they don’t already have them.

I wanted a lathe, mill and other metal-working capability because my experimental interests often call for parts/tools and gizmos that can’t be bought, or as rare as rocking horse droppings at huge cost!  My latest design calls for two M4 steel tipped brass machine screws with ornamental heads.  Hardenable tips cos, mild-steel is a bit soft!  Ordinary M4 machine screws will do for testing, but for the finished item I want pretty and ergonomic.

Close to Martin’s “making something that didn’t exist before I made it.”  Vital, I think, to get this aspect into a sales pitch.  Investing time and effort in a hobby that allows one to expensively make objects that can be bought cheap in a shop isn’t appealing.   A hobby that allows you to make and mend stuff that no-one else can is hot stuff.

Howard’s examples are both good training objects, well worth doing when beginners are learning how to drive their new toys.  I take Jason’s point though:  I started by building 5 stationary model steam engines.  Not because I wanted them, but because the challenges and training were invaluable.  And after assembly, I learned fettling,timing, and how to extemporise  compressed air.  Then I found engines and clocks are good because of the thrill when they burst into life.

Back in the day, these thrills were mostly provided by mechanical objects; since then wireless, electronics, and computers joined the game too.  Easy to sell Model Engineering when LBSC was young, now there are many, many alternatives.

Dave

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Comments in the latest edition of Model Engineer seem quite hopefully at odds with the doom and gloom expressed in much of this discussion so far.

Summarising a lot of this thread seems to limit model-engineering to building large-scale live-steam models having started by making lots of tools you can buy, and needing sizeable workshops equipped with hefty machine-tools – something just not feasible in many modern dwellings. You’ve also to consider how you will move a few hundred-weight (oh all right, kg) of oily bulkiness about having made it: workshop facilities are only the start.

The hobby covers far more than that though. Although sizeable locomotives and traction-engines do form perhaps the mainstay, and this is my own path through it, what of all the other fields: stationary steam engines (mill, beam, etc.), i.c. and hot-air engines, working models of road vehicles, factory plant, water- and wind-mills, and so on?

What of what are really more brother pursuits than “model”-engineering, clock and scientific-instrument making?

What about ornamental turning? No I know you can’t trot off from the Warco or Myford stand with a fully-equipped modern version of a Holtzappfel lathe, but has anyone ever considered making ornamental-turning accessories to fit modern lathes – perhaps even the smaller lathes that might be accommodated in smaller houses? (A milling-spindle and dividing-set would be a likely start.) No doubt some would say a good deal of such work could be performed on a CNC machine: all right, perhaps it can, but you’d score more points by building the NC accessories to convert a basic lathe or verticall mill, and learning the programming. Though I’d be less impressed by 3D-printed items: that would seem the equivalent of making a clock-case but installing a purchased electrical movement.

 

The public face of model-engineering is indeed impressive – but can the large-scale machines unwittingly also be a deterrant to some who might not realise that the hobby covers far more than these?

Really, we need foster the interest in anyone, but we won’t be very successful if we emphasise just two or three areas of model-engineering, and the areas most expensive in cost, space and time at that, over the rest of it.

 

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Though I’d be less impressed by 3D-printed items: that would seem the equivalent of making a clock-case but installing a purchased electrical movement.

 

This is an interesting observation.

The “cheating” bit would seem to only be the chosen 3D printed material. What needs to be considered is what is required before that.

The part still needs to be thought about and designed and then coverted to a suitable shape to be printed. That is where the work is not pressing the button and waiting for the printer to spit the part out. Same with CNC it is the design and what you enter into the CAM program that requires the skill.

Martin’s opening post mentions the “experimental” part of the hobby. This is also where CAD, FEA and 3D printing is the ideal tool. The budding inventor can tweak his design without even needing a lathe or mill.

The fact you can use printed items to prototype a design and quickly make alterations is another bonus. Throw in affordable printers that can do fibre reinforced parts and there may be no need for that part to be metal. And be prepared to fall over, you could also upload the file to a 3rd party print house and after a few days have your part in your hand in metal be that printed metal or CNC machined.

Simple example is I have on several occasions been asked to do the 3D CAD work for people who have access to a 3D printer but apart from printing toys downloaded from the net can’t do anything else with it as they cand produce the 3D part (sounds familiar!) Not a bad little earner which could be included in the same magazines article in making the hobby pay.

Did these parts in half an hour one evening, two replacement buttons for something which have brought some items back to life. Quite enjoyed working out how to get equal depth dimple son that compound curved surface. Could just as easily be that broken suspension arm on a kids RC car or a button on that Restomod that a 50something is working on.

So what the item is made from and how the design is done has changes so if the SMEE etc is to continue then they need to move with the times and the modern methods work just as well if build in a steam engine or jet turbine.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, as far as making tools, I made many in school metalwork, something that many schools seem to lack these days. Yes, one of the tools is a tap wrench, and it has had a lot of use.

I think the basic thing was to learn how to use various hand tools and machinery, although I did learn a lot from my father, so I might have been ahead of some of my classmates, but I got better marks in metalwork than all the other subjects, although technical drawing was my second best subject..

Regards Nick.

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