What is (Traditional) Model Engineering?

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I’m interested in your collective opinions as to a general definition of model engineering.

In the early days interests were very much focused on current and new technology, radio, X-rays, steam and IC development and much of the writing in the Model Engineer broke new ground with the latest ideas and machine tools. Currently the hobby to some may seem rather backward looking with a preoccupation with Steam Engines and some who would dismiss new technology in the form of CNC, 3D printing etc as being beyond the pale. Others love exploring new ideas and techniques.

What are your thoughts? Have we become backward looking unlike those who began the hobby or do you feel there is interest to be found in exploring the new ground that modern engineering is breaking every day.

Best regards Martin

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Traditional model engineering?

Maybe an old boy on a treadel driven mangle of a lathe, working in a tiny unheated, uninsultated shed down the bottom of the garden lit by a 100w lamp, desperately trying to complete a 5 inch gauge model of the Flying Scotsman, that unfortunately never does get finished.

Everything then ends in a skip by a dodgy house clearing company after all the brass and copper bits have been “removed”.

Seriously though, the obsession about building locomotives has got to put off some newcomers into model engineering. Building a locomotive by someone who has a mortgage and young family will be a project that could take several years to complete (if at all). Add to the fact that our hobby is expensive, not very sociable and there is no instant gratification.

I think model engineering is stuck in a rut to be honest.

Attracting young people is the key, but have you seen the new modern houses that are being built? No room to swing a cat, garden the size of a postage stamp and hardly any space for a shed/workshop…

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes Derek has probably got it about right as to what the typical ME is thought to be and the subject they are expected to want to make. More on that later

But these days the different factions have drifted apart, What you mention is the “Model and Experimental” engineer of days gone by which was an all encompassing title.

These days you won’t find many of the CNC, 3D printing, Jet engine, etc types hanging about here or on MECH as they all have their own forums and in some cases magazines. ME mag used to be “and electrician” now there are electronics mags and forums/social media that cater for them so still out there but don’t consider themselves Modellers or engineers,you need to go out and look rather than expect them to come to you

Then there are those who have a home workshop but absolutely no interest in making models or tools. They want to use their lathe, mill and workshop simply as tools to allow them to further their main hobby be that car/bike work, knife making, wind/water turbines and other sustanable energy sources etc Again these have their forums and FB groups and may only look in here if they have a question about an old machine or how to machine a specific item which if it is not a loco may get little response.

As to Derek’s view of a typical ME of the past and who will take over. One only needs look at other forums and FB groups to see that other people are actually making things which is something that seems to be lacking here. If people don’t see anything to inspire them there is little hope of them taking up the hobby as they are really to young to join the grumpy mens club as they are not all well past retirement age

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

I do not have the long attention span and drive to build a working locomotive. I have made bar stock steam engines for practice and Stuart type model steam engines with plans and required materials. The problem is that when you have built examples of many steam engine types (not done a compound, yet) you get to the point where you do not really want to make another steam engine that is just a variation on one that you have already made.

At the moment I am making a one off part with some ancillary parts for someone else and it is the planning and execution of a complex manufacturing process when you have some limitations to available tools and processes that keeps me amused.

Martin C

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Some very interesting and insightful comments, do keep them coming. If you wanted to introduce a youngster to building something, what would you do to make it attractive.?

regards Martin

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Well Martin that is the 64000 dollar question!, my suggestions…

Something that can be completed reasonably quickly with some clear objective of what “it” is and will “do”.

Easy to make but hard enough to make it challenging and with it a sense of achievement at the end.

Something they are not afraid of showing to their mates without ridicule.

Whatever it is that they build, makes them want to build another “thing”

Now what that “something” actually is, I am not sure, maybe a mixture of mechanical and electronics with some programming?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ask them what they might want not what you think they will want to make.

Give them a metric design not fractional bananas

Have 3D renderings and maybe an animation of what it could look like not just grubby old 2D drawings. Put a 3D image of each part next to it on the 2D CAD drawings as they will probably have a job understanding traditional projection

Don’t just think of making it from metal, plastics both solid and printed, wood, etc could be incorperated

Similarly make use of modern adhesives like Loctite and JB Weld rather than silver soldering which requires more kit.

Show them it being done on a cheap benchtop machine not old iron

Just use a cheap digital calliper for the measuring, no need for micromiters etc.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Though I enjoyed my recent visit to the Midlands show, I couldn’t help noticing that nearly every visitor was, like me, white haired with specs and looking a bit “past my prime”.  This is the problem – the hobby is literally dying out.  The demographic makes it very difficult to appreciate what it is that interests younger people, and it’s no use pretending that we can attract them into building steam locos etc.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the general consensus to traditional model engineering seems to be model engineering meaning, but I think it can be almost anything you like that you engineer, or has been engineered, as long as it represents something of full size, and being smaller or bigger, and working or non working.

e.g. This was a kit that I built. made of wood, although I didn’t make the individual pieces.

Regards Nick.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

” If you wanted to introduce a youngster to building something, what would you do to make it attractive.?”

Smash his/her X-box and Pandora’s box (smart phone)

Unfortunately, the days of wonder and the quest for knowledge that my generation grew up in are long gone. About thirty years ag I was questioned by a youf, where I had bought a R/C glider? Fuselage was home designed and moulded Glass fibre and built up wing. Next question, How long did it take to build? About three weeks. OH, that’s much too long!

My enjoyment of ME as a hobby ran in parallel to my full time employment in ‘Propper’ ingineerin and derived from handle twiddling rather than button pushing. Let’s NOT try to classify me as a mechanical dinosaur as in industry, I totally embraced teknoleggy BUT, 0s and 1s are fine when making quantities off rather than a single example although some go down that route,”Because they can”

Sadly, Instant gratification and ‘disposable’ income have weakened the hobby.

Regards  Ian.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Martin’s comments got me thinking.  Making models (or whatever), and all that it entails, is for some of us what it’s all about.  But what happens to all of those masterpieces once completed?  Mostly I suspect, they become ornaments that collect dust (because they’ve all been oiled to inhibit corrosion of course).  It does on the face of it seem a shame.

On the subject of getting youngsters involved.  I suspect it’s probably a little too late.  The education system seems to give scant regard to such things, and the many apprenticeships that used to be, are a thing of the past.  I think it’s got a bit like them not knowing where milk and eggs, etc come from.

[Martin Kyte]

On Martin Kyte Said:

If you wanted to introduce a youngster to building something, what would you do to make it attractive.?

regards Martin

Our club (South Cheshire MES) is currently trying to answer that question.

We have a partnership with a local college (Crewe Engineering and Design UTC) where we are one of several Business Partners. Our contributions include talking to students, providing a display for open days and setting  a yearly design project with revues and a Dragon’s Den type presentation session at the end.

We hope to at least inspire some future engineers and just maybe get the odd new member.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Lots of navel gazing here. The question referred to “Traditional Model Engineering”. I think that most folk will know what that means.

My take is that Model Engineering is what YOU want it to be. I really don’t care what other people’s views are. Some of my projects would make most people here on the forum, look askance! I do build model locos, I don’t care if I never finish them. The pleasure is in the journey not the end result.

Andrew.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

In our day it was wood, metalwork or art and we based our later life hobbies on that.

Design Technology is the thing in schools today and the curriculum gives you an ‘in’ to what modern kids have had a taste of.

But consider, when did you start mangling metal into engines or what ever?  Probably not just out of school (Jason probably excepted, there’s always one.)

40 to 50+ ? that may be todays target age group with 3D printers etc.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Dave, I can remember filing a round hole into a square one, for a coach bolt, which was a test my dad set me when I was about six years old, and it fitted perfectly on my first attempt, I was often in his shed with him watching him on his lathe and doing various other things from about the age of five, and I even used his hand cranking bench drill, to put holes in the odd thing for him. I also remember making a weathervane from an old bicycle wheel hub, when I was about eight, (although my dad did make a collar on his lathe for me) the NESW were made from thickish wire, which also held them to the hub. It was attached to the top of the linen line post, somehow, and worked well for quite some time, until the rain found its way into the bearings and seized it up. Metalwork was the only subject that I really Liked when I started at secondary school.

Regards Nick.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

First engine at about 14 I think. One of the model mags at the time that I got due to my interest in RC buggies also had a basic beam engine in it. Made most of that in metalwork at school. Nothing fancy, the cylinder wa sa bit of bras tube soldered to a square flange and screwed to the wooden base, beam just a piece of flat ali etc.

The interest in RC is what also got me my first lathe not an interest in making engines, that came later but not much later! At teh time the MEX being under MAP covered many subjects so going to my first one to see the buggy racing I was introduced to all the other subjects their titles covered. Now we seem to have separate shows for each subject be that ME, Model rail, RC, Plastic Models, etc.

[Les RileyParticipant @lesriley75593]

I was very lucky, looking back.

We had Norman Spink as our metalwork teacher.

We all made Mamod style steam engines and boilers for our O Level exam…

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Oh those halcyon days.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I couldn’t agree more but how do we progress?
regards Martin

 

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

My sparse collection of old ME mags starts in 1918, and has a few examples from each decade.  They give a reasonable insight into what Model Engineering was at the time, and it’s changed.  Not in my opinion for the best, I detect a whiff of rot and decline, others may disagree!   In 1918, ME was emphatically up to date, now it’s far more retro.   For what I need, in terms of knowledge sharing, the 50’s were a golden decade.  Articles written by qualified engineers, trained back when manual skills were mainstream, and what they said is directly applicable in my manual workshop.  Apart from carbide inserts and a Digital Caliper, LBSC would be at home in it.

Percival Marshall’s choice of title, “Model Engineer” is clever.  It encompasses ‘model’ in both senses: means representing a structure, not necessarily in miniature, but also best practice; ways of doing things that are worthy of imitation.   ‘Engineer’ is equally broad, covering practical skills in any technical subject, up to and including university qualified hoods!  A Model Engineer can be anything between:

1. Chaps enjoying artisanal skills in a shed, making small chuff-chuffs, restoring stuff, and learning by doing.   Much of their work is done to a high-standard, but the techniques are generally old-fashioned, and rely on experience rather than new research.   Stuff is built from plans, or derived from a full-scale prototype.  Little need for a deep understanding of maths,  materials, physics, chemistry, electricity, thermodynamics, electronics, computers, economics, H&S or legalities.  Unlikely to have many engineering text books.
2. Chaps with professional training who invent, design, analyse, build and test complex systems to fulfil functional objectives.  New requirements are met whilst considering practicality, regulation, safety and cost.  Experience is not particularly valuable, because it’s replaced by knowing how to innovate from first principles.  A university level engineering qualification of some sort is almost mandatory.  Developing a design and creating the plans needed to implement one is much harder than following in someone else’s footsteps.   Therefore this group are more likely to be significantly into maths, material properties, physics, chemistry, electricity, thermodynamics, electronics, computers, economics, H&S and legalities.  Probably have a well-stocked, well-thumbed technical library, and be aware of current best practice and what the market wants today, not 50 years ago!  They solve problems mathematically, program computers, are CAD fluent, and take a broad view of how requirements might be met.  Open to all potential solutions: electronics, plastics, CNC, 3D-printing are all up for grabs.

Sadly, I suggest the rot and decline I fear, is due to Model Engineering having slowly become dominated by old-school interests, many of whom positively hate modernity.  Nothing wrong in hands-on retro methods as a hobby, but it doesn’t attract youngsters.   So they vote with their feet!  Though Circlip’s sentiment is common on the forum, him fondly imagining “Unfortunately, the days of wonder and the quest for knowledge that my generation grew up in are long gone.“, is nonsense.   Youth are exploring this century’s wonders, not Circlip’s “good old days”.  Same difference.

This century is about advanced electronics, computer applications and such. Battlebots, WiFi and quadcopters rather than building a Quorn.   Youth, and more importantly, the job-market, do not value basic 20th century engineering skills much; what was previously done by large numbers of machinists operating manual machines, is now done by CNC machines, automated production lines and robots.  These are driven from a CAD package, requiring design skills, see Group 2 above!   Essentially, one clever engineer with a computer eliminates many old-school jobs and skills.  Straight into a skip go Slide-rule designers; Drawing Offices; and above all any labour intensive shop floor requiring several skilled machinists.  And no need for production to be in the UK, or owned by the company! A CAD design developed in the UK can be emailed anywhere in the world.

British schools stopped teaching basic engineering skills because advancing technology destroyed hundreds of thousands of jobs. In 2024, for whatever reason, the UK economy simply doesn’t need them, not in large numbers anyway.  Instead, kids are taught ‘Materials Science’ and ‘Design Technology’, which are valuable at the moment.

What’s ‘Design Technology’? –  DT is the study, design, development, application, implementation, support and management of computer and non-computer based technologies for the express purpose of communicating product design intent and constructability.  DT addresses there being very little commercial value in teaching how to saw, hammer, drill, turn, file, or mill now that technology has moved on.  The world changed, and youth and employers don’t require the traditional skills many older Model Engineers consider essential.   So youth don’t become Model Engineers: they join the Maker community.  That’s packed with technical wonders, and they employ different tools and techniques. Makers get stuff done in other ways, and many skills considered essential by forum members are secondary.   Being able to get superb results out of a lovely old Drummond, is no help when making printed circuit boards!

I’ve suffered the pain caused by technology leaving me behind several times in my career.  I’m an ex-Software Engineer, a profession that changes far faster than Mechanical Engineering.   Started by learning COBOL. At the time COBOL was a solid job-for-life, name-your-own-salary opportunity.  Many, many thousands of vacancies in the UK, boom time.  Less than 10 years later, COBOL was in rapid decline, made obsolete by more productive new languages and code generators.  COBOL specialists were rather suddenly unloved and unwanted.  Survivors worked in maintenance teams, avoiding change unless they broke it!  When made redundant, they were often unemployable.

What did I do?  I agonisingly learnt a succession of new software development tools, some of which only stayed in pole position for a few years before being replaced themselves.  Plenty of jobs, but staying qualified for them was hard work.  Far harder than merely learning Metric.   Twas the way of the world, and my career choice very unkind to anyone set in their ways.  Many failed to cope!

To me the idea that skills learned 40 years ago are the future is suspect.  Are they really?  Tried to get a job that needs them recently? Thin on the ground.

So Model Engineering, excellent hobby though it is, faces an uncertain future.  If we hope to attract young people, then attitudes and what we make have to change.   Or  does it matter?  On the plus side, plenty of newcomers are still buying machine tools as they approach retirement. That’s when they have time, money, and space for a workshop.   Perhaps we simply accept Model Engineers will all be older than fifty and stop worrying about the way we develop off-putting dinosaur opinions.   Living in the past on an internet forum is great fun, just don’t expect youngsters to take it seriously!

Dave

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I have wondered for quite a while now if there is a sort of circular arguing going on, by which young people receive poor encouragement from too many Elders -and-[supposedly]-Betters to be genuinely creative, because those E&SBs all think all the “yoof of today” is only interested in faffing about with Facebook and games. So they don’t bother to be encouraging.

(Though how many of those E&SBs are themselves creative and practical, is an open question; even given that their creativity may be expressed in, say, composing music.)

 

Also, it is all very well citing “electronics”, but in what way? The E&SBs say the Y-of-T is “tech savvy” – a claim as sloppy as its own assault on the language. Being adept at exploring the Internet from a “smart-‘phone” means you are only adept at using domestic electronics appliances.

Besides, just as with other practical-skills glossy-magazines disappearing from the shelves in WH Smith and similar supermarket-type shops, are there still electronics design-and-construction publications? Does that hobby survive to any real extent? When did you last see an electronics-components shop? (Rather than one merely selling ready-made gadgets.)

 

To attract young people into the hobby, I think it it has to be seen to offer areas of direct interest to them, feasible for them (with help) and for their creativity to be encouraged; but that feasibility means more than gaining technical ability.  I suspect even many adults would baulk at a hobby in which even a relatively modest project can take a year or more of precious spare-time, considerable patience, and acceptance that gaining experience means trying to minimise wasting a lot of material by mistakes; let alone the hobby needing a good deal of expensive tools.

…

Yes, we all know many of us are of the Age of Wisdom and White Hair (I am, well, at least of the latter!) and we even joke ruefully about it among ourselves; but there are younger people coming into the hobby. We need learn what they want out of it, what they want to make; and to encourage them along those routes while also encouraging the pursuit’s ethos.

An ethos that also defines it: making mechanical / electro-mechanical things that work, to the best quality one can manage, and from raw materials.

Really, just as Model Engineer & Electrician magazine sought to encourage 100 years ago.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The equivalent to ME and this forum in the USA is ‘Home Shop Machinist’ HSM covering snowblower repair as often as CAD program choice and occasional steam engines. This is where ME was when Percival Marshall started and it took 30+ years to refine down to steam engines, IC engines, clocks, with a bit of boats because before small electric engines they tended to be steam powered, but little woodworking. Aircraft branched off quickly because it was mostly wood perhaps.

Key features of a model engineer.
1) Want to make things. As skill develops more complexity satisfies.
2)Things must have visible moving parts hence clocks but not wood tables, ornaments etc.Steam engines have an added attraction because they are also hot (temperature). It’s the Aga effect. People who have an Aga find that visitors to the kitchen gravitate subconciously to stand by the stove – this is because it is hot and activates the ‘go to mother’ instinct.

Computer games seem to have taken over but that is connected to the moving images (see 2 above)

3D printers, laser cutters, cnc carvers move – that helps.
So we need to foster that method of making things and add the enhancements of making parts of it out of metal.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It is interesting to look at some of the European mags. I get MiM Maschinen im Modellbau which is probably the nearest to what Germany has in the way of ME/MEW. Latest issue has:

Making a gear hob and using it to cut helical gears

Using Fusion F360 Part 5

Miniature traction engine, the height of a match

Governor for a steam engine

Shand mason build

Musgrave NDC build

Model motorbike with working V twin about 500mm long

Machining a watch case good for 250bar if you drop it in the sea

Model of an old dreadle driven street knife sharpeners cart

You will notice there is not one article on Locos, they do quite often have something CNC related. However the same publisher also has other titles that cover things like model flight, model boats, model trucks/cranes/heavy plant, as well as specials on subjects like CNC, just steam models. They also still publish their plans and add new ones to the list all the time, when did you last see what Sarik now do updated with a new design?

Their shows put ours to shame, the main ones are as big if not bigger than ME when it used to be at wembly, small one sare as good as our last remaining show and one of the main differences is there are loads of models running and in action, what better to inspire the younger visitors. Certainly better than a stand of static locos with a steward who is just chatting to his mate rather than engaging with the visitors.

What kid would not want to go to this show, and plenty there below retirement age.

And one for the loco (old) boys

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

martin, I assume this thread relates to the SMEE and moving forward?

If so then a recent article in MEW suggests to me that the SMEE themselves are behind the times and need to get upto date before they can attract new blood who want to use the latest tech.

The fact that none in the SME “Digital Group” had never tried thread milling is a worry. The article that followed about working out g-code and experimenting until a thread could be cut was long winded and out of date. People who are  a bit more up to speed would simply use the nearest CAM to produce the path and a thread mill to do the cutting and have their finished part before you could read to the end of the first page of the article.

It was this same approach at a ME show when SMEE members were faffing about trying to do a simple operation on a Firefly engine that put me off the idea of CNC as I could have done it quicker manually and I did not accept the first machine I was offered by the late JS. Now I have still never written a line of G code but can happily produce complex 3D parts on my CNC but it was certainly not thanks to the SMEE.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Amateur radio and Electronics magazines are suffering from very similar issues. Electronics has mostly gone “Maker”, just assembling modules and some downloaded software. Often there is not even a decent description of how the thing works. This is also reflected in the skillset of newly minted “engineers” coming out of UK universities. They are great at CAD, CNC, 3DP etc. but somewhat short on practical / commonsense engineering. Just because you can draw a complex bracket on CAD and get it machines from solid by a 5 axis CNC does not meant it if the optimum way to do the job. A couple of bits of extrusion may be better. I’ve also noticed a tendency to just read and accept the advertising “fluff” rather than studying the full datasheets. The notes in datasheets are often where the the real limitations and “gotchas” can be found…

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