What is the ultimate lathe for model engineering

[Scaublin120 Deckel fp1Participant @scaublin120deckelfp1]

Machine selection

[Scaublin120 Deckel fp1Participant @scaublin120deckelfp1]

Hi All

This is my first post and i thought i would ask what is the ultimate lathe and milling machine for model engineering?

Think carefully before you answer

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

There isn’t one definitive answer.

 

It depends on a lot of things, space, price etc.

 

.

[Anonymous]

Think carefully before asking questions! 

 

Before deciding upon the ‘ultimate’ lathe and mill you would need to define those criteria by which each machine will be judged, otherwise the choice is just somebody’s opinion. But, since those criteria will be different for each person the OP’s original question is meaningless. Some of the things by which an individual may make a choice are:

 

1) What is being made; size, materials, complexity

 

2) Other machines available, which will dictate how versatile each machine needs to be

 

3) Space available

 

4) Electrical supply available

 

5) Depth of one’s pocket

 

6) Skill of the operator

 

7) What yer mate has, and sings the praises of same

 

8) What you used as an apprentice

 

9) How much time you have available

 

And a whole load of other things………

 

The only real way to find out is to buy a lathe and a mill, use them, and then you’ll realise what you should have bought!

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[Dinosaur EngineerParticipant @dinosaurengineer]

What would you think the equipment requirement would be between a model making clocks and one making 6″ scale traction engines ? 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

While it would be possible to make clocks on a large machine it would be easier to have something around the size of a myford but again would depend on the size of your clocks Big Ben or something for the mantle piece.

 

And again what size 6″ traction engine the small Gold Medal Tractor or Little Samson are only half the length of a 6″ Ploughing engine with a large engine like a Mclaren somewhere between the two. At the minimum you would want a lathe with 12″ swing and gap bed and a mill the size of a Bridgeport minimum.

 

This is pushing the limit of a mill when using it to turn the flywheel off a 6″ Garret

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 03/09/2010 17:59:16

Edited By JasonB on 03/09/2010 18:00:06

Edited By JasonB on 03/09/2010 18:05:29

[AndyBParticipant @andyb47186]

The ultimate machines are those that do everything you want them to.

 

As everyone else has said; now, what do you want them to do?

 

Andy

 

PS I suppose the ultimate is having one of every model ever made.

[Axel BentellParticipant @axelbentell]

the ultime is the one you can afford, and that includes accesories! Most will do fine with a better quality China-lathe or similar. However with ingenuity one can make any lathe work for any task! Its the artist that makes the art not the tools!

[adyParticipant @ady]

The ones with cross slide t-slots are the best ones.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by ady on 04/09/2010 09:00:02:
The ones with cross slide t-slots are the best ones.

 

So you would rather have say a Clarke CL250 with its slotted slide, plastic handwheels, plastic gears etc over say a Harrison M300 or Colchester?

 

I know which I would go for

 

J

 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Jason,

The difference is YOU have used a lathe.

 

You don’t need to own a lathe to have an opinion.

 

.

John S.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Back in the 1940s ME held a ‘design the prefect lathe’ competition. I don’t know the rules, but I have seen a couple of the winners. It was something that created much interest and debate, and I think it could well be a good idea to run it again, perhaps in ME.

 

What was interesting is that it highlighted shortcomings and issues  with various styles of lathe, and possibly identified what was important for a model engineer (whose needs are those of a toolroom but whose budget is generally that for mass production).

 

Of course there is no right answer, it’s like asking ‘what are the best clothes to wear?’

 

Neil

 

[Lawrie Alush-JaggsParticipant @lawriealush-jaggs50843]

Very difficult questin to answer for all of the reasons already given, though I would have to suggest that the Stepperhead might just go in somewhere.

[dixieParticipant @dixie]

Hi All .Does anyone think the original question smacks of a Michael removing exersize

dixie

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Often questions leave out vital details, there was the case of someone asking about  machine corrosion protection, everyone chimed in then we were told that the enquirer lived with 100% humidity in the tropics.

 

It is also easy to answer a question that is not being asked. So what is being asked? the ULTIMATE LATHE AND MILLING MACHINE. Well the answer has to be a £6,270,000 six axis CNC with a full set of miracle cut software, all of the carbide and diamond tooling and full training. Even if you cannot make what you need as an ME, the machine could make the machine to make whatever you wanted to make.

 

On the other hand, not many people think very much of a combined lathe/mill at all let alone think that it could be an ultimate tool unless your SHMBO declaired it.

 

Some might think that the question invites their choice of lathe  and their fave mill. Well there is NO machine that is affordable that will meet EVERY requirement so people stock up with a big lathe – Colchester, TOS, DS&G, Harrison- to do the demanding larger work and a small lathe- such as a Cowells for small work with the old Myford for winding coils.( Sir John unslotted Stevenson now has EIGHT lathes!!!!).

Most people have not mentioned Mills, same argument large industrial job for big work, smalll high speed job for small.

 

Wind up? well you need practice to do a good one.

 

Regards,

Alan. 

 

 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

No I have had a rethink and to be honest it’s got to be seven and a quarter.

 

You see one day I was working away and this truck pulls up, driver comes in and says I have a machine for you. Go out expecting an Ink machine for repair [ I used to make them ] and there on this truck is a Myford ML7 on a stand.

 

Where’s it from ? 

 

Ower boss said to deliver it to you.

 

Who’s your boss ?

 

Harrisons Transport.

 

So Mr Harrison has sent it ?

 

No he’s just told me to deliver it.

 

[ Give up at this point as it obvious I’m stressing his brain cell ]

 

So we unload it and wheel it in, looked it over and the ‘stand ‘ is a large MEM switchbox and I mean large.

The lathe is a bog standard ML7 is atrocious condition, EVERYTHING is worn out, never seen a machine tool as bad. I don’t recondition machine tools so unsure where or why it’s arrived. Park it up and wait a phone call.

 

Three months go by, no phone call, leave it another month, still no call so cut the stand up for scrap and park the lathe in a corner stood vertical to save space.

 

Six months go by, no phone call so sell the motor, motor mounting and clutch to needy people. Four years on still no phone call and a few more bits robbed off it so what’s left allowing for condition is only a quarter of a lathe.

 

I often wonder, when I fall over it, where it came from and before anyone claims ownership remember the unpaid rent.

 

Other lathes in no order just for interest.

 

6″ x 30 CVA toolroom lathe

7″ x 40 TOS 360 centre lathe

11″ x 84″ SN50 TOS lathe

Sieg C0 baby lathe

Conect CNC lathe based on Myford ML10

Sieg C4 CNC lathe, prototype, not released in this country.

Denford ORAC CNC lathe

 

Sir John unslotted Stevenson

[adyParticipant @ady]

Bottom line guys.

 

When we used to run the world, and make everything, in the 20th century, we had a pretty big trade in making hobby lathes.

 

The decent British lathes produced for the hobbyist ALL had slotted cross slides.

Yes there were the cheapo crapo ones and the American ones(produced by those guys that didn’t even know jet engines existed and couldn’t make a decent piston engined plane).

 

All the Brit lathes for serious hobbyists had cross slides.

 

If your forefathers were a bunch of tossers who didn’t have a clue about what was best for lathes then tell us all now, 100 years after they started up and ran the industrial revolution which swept the world.

 

Tell us all today, how you know so much more than they ever did.

[adyParticipant @ady]

Look at Tonys site, rocket science it aint.

 

The only lathes that didn’t have a slotted cross slide were the really crappy ones for the poor devils with 26 children and working 18 hours in the mills for 360 days a year.

[adyParticipant @ady]

And if you want a decent lathe look at the ones the war office chose.

 

In 1940 there simply wasn’t time to mess about any more.

[Billy MillsParticipant @billymills]

Ady

Thanks for the fun that you have given us over slotted slides on the “lathes”  post.

 

When you slot the slide it massivly reduces the stiffness of the slide and reduces the capacity of the lathe. That is why seriously good lathes like Colchesters or Harrisons et al don’t  have slots but some hobby lathes do because the people that buy them think of all the wonderful attatchments that they could use and the manufacturers think of all the ball turning accessories that they will sell.

 

If you use a lathe commercially or for serious work then the one thing you need is great turning, that comes with massive wide ways and slides that are stiff and straight. The slots are not of much use to a serious machine, parting is not the problem it is with a bendy lathe, you do have the power to use carbide full tilt to get fast removal without rubbing out the edge. Tool changing is not an issue but the post  is far more rigid than slots.

 

As already said the serious unslotted lathes WILL mount accessories on the top slide it is just that they don’t have the need to impair the nice flat surface with slots that catch swarf. If people followed your  “slots are essential”  line then they would miss out on the best lathes around. But you do miss out  easy tool changes, collets, gap beds,big calibrated handwheels, stiffness, motor power, belt or gearbox speed, threadcutting and everything else that the experienced consider.

 

The UK was the workshop of the world up to about 1851 NOT the 20th C. That was part due to Henry Maudslay who fitted the first slides and screw to make a real metalworking lathe ( without T slots) and who mentored Whitworth, Nasmyth,Muir, Clement and Napier amonst others. He also produced the micrometer and the tooling for the world’s first assembly line in Portsmouth with Marc Brunell. That was a GREAT engineer.

 

Finally if you want TG’s opinion on lathes look at his lathe buying advice section and hunt the slotted slides.

Regards,

Alan.

[adyParticipant @ady]

Thanks for telling me why I should purchase a one ton lathe and put it into my bedroom on the third floor of a tenement.

 

The dog is getting a bit nervous with all the creaking noises and has to keep retrieviving her squeaky toy because the floorboards are getting a bit bowed.

 

–If you use a lathe commercially or for serious work–

I’m on about one man lift lathes, hobby land.

If I go commercial I’ll get a Hardinge or something, definitely a toolrom lathe, and use the garage

Got a wee while before going there though, as have others.

 

The big advantage is the speed of fixing workpieces or tooling to an extremely stiff dimension.

Once the compound is removed the difference is striking, whether it’s basic drilling milling boring or turning with a saddle based tool holder.

Even stainless steel is fine, it fights hard when you skin it, but it submits.

 

A buddy of mine said his ML7  couldn’t cope with stainless but if he removes the compound and bolts a big chunk of steel on the cross slide with a negative rake carbide tool poking out of it he’ll get the jist of what can be done(like with cast iron).

Compounds are pretty bendy things and only have limited uses.

Edited By ady on 05/09/2010 03:07:51

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

Well, my ML7 manages stainless on occasion, as has the little Unimat a little further along the bench. Use carbide tooling if you can, and don’t go too fast. The stuff does not conduct heat well so take it quiet, but also don’t allow the tool to rub, as it will workharden. I drilled some holes about quarter inch diameter four inches or so deep in 316 stainless on the Unimat once, took a while but we got there in the finish.

 

The ML7 is also hardly a one man lift, unless you are training for the Olympic weightlifting. The saddle based toolholder is of course an excellent idea, must get a round tuit one day.

 

But of course there is rarely one optimum answer for anything, the guy who has to contain his entire workshop in an open out cupboard in a small flat will have different ideas to the guy who has a 1000 square foot concrete floored workshop with drive in access. (Well it would be drive in if it wasn’t full of boats and machinery. )

 

regards

John

 

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

My no.,2 lathe does’nt have a slotted cross slide, I don’t think they would be any use on it,Oh and it will turn stainless—-slowly (its a Super Adept). Ian S C

[Anonymous]

I knew I’d made a mistake when I bought my lathe; now I know why. It hasn’t got T-slots on the cross slide, dooooh! There are two triangular slots along the length which can be used for bolting accessories onto the cross slide, but I guess that doesn’t count. Mind you it will turn stainless at speeds and feeds appropriate to carbide tooling.

 

I have to make up for my deprivation by resorting to plenty of tea slots during the day. The kettle is always on for a brew.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

[JimmieSParticipant @jimmies]

What small(ish) lathe, Myford apart, would be suitable for cutting BSC threads ie 40, 32, 26 and 24 tpi?

 

Jim

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