What did you do today (2015)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Heat Pumps … Great idea, if only they weren't so noisy.

Does anyone remember the [Electrolux, I think] refrigerator that had no motor and was almost silent in operation? … I don't suppose that design could be scaled-up.

MichaelG.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

There is a similar night storage system available in the UK Ian. This house had it in when we moved in. Gas worked out a lot cheaper when it was installed. Not sure how it compares now and the storage heater have improved as well. Some of the ones here were just a water tank but the electric people provided a cheap top up sometime around mid day. It was probably installed in the 60's maybe 70's.

I put the gas heating in about 20 years ago and at that time most people were installing 80 – 60C systems as mentioned in the link I posted. Microbore was having problems due to the people installing them hence having to do 10mm myself but with a length limit due to the size of the radiators needed for 60C running. The 80C types would only really be need to be run at that when it was very cold but that's when the heating spends a lot of time on. The last paragraph in the link explains the problem. Insulate the house so that the 80C rad temperature isn't needed at all and things get different. Change radiator sizes and different again. On new builds now it's all well sorted out. Live in a 3 story 5 bed solid wall house like I do and things aren't so easy but fortunately the radiators are big enough to make good use of a condensing boiler. No hot water tanks and a vented system to make replacement difficult. Solid floors and some odd pipe runs so a sealed system might have problems without some rather large expansion vessels. We use a heat store for hot water so there is no run up time as there is with combi's. The boiler hardly ever comes on to keep the store up to temperature so I'm not keen to change that aspect. We don't have any heating on the top floor. The roof is insulated and the lower floors keep it warm.

We ran it with no thermostat for a long time, unusual at the time and just used the radiator valves. Pump life suffers though so eventually I fitted a thermostat. Never been happy were it was really – in the room with the boiler uncontrolled over run radiator so just bought one with a radio link from the thermostat to the controller so I can move it around. Currently in the living room along with 2 rads with wax stats. This is a don't do but the results so far look like they will be of some benefit to the gas bill. The over run radiator is in one of the bathrooms so guess that might get a little bit warmer than needed – so what.

John

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Edited By John W1 on 08/11/2015 12:12:11

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2015 11:52:34:

Heat Pumps … Great idea, if only they weren't so noisy.

Does anyone remember the [Electrolux, I think] refrigerator that had no motor and was almost silent in operation? … I don't suppose that design could be scaled-up.

MichaelG.

Silent fridges are now in widespread use – ideal for hotel rooms and bedrooms. But they are based on Peltier cells (which are consequently available for peanuts on ebay / AliXpress etc). Didn't there also use to be gas powered fridges at one time?

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

The system in the mother in laws bungalow is oil fired as there is no gas, originally the little estate was designed with a central oil tank for all the homes but that fell by the wayside although the infrastructure was put in place. Fitted a new oil condensing boiler outside the bungalow next to the oil tank which is new and fire resistant so can be put just about anywhere. The boiler has an internal hot water store so hot water is almost instant all be it you still need to run off the cold water in the pipes. I tend to over size radiators such that that the water temperature on the flow can be lower for the same heat output which means the radiators are bigger, at present I have the flow temp set at 50 degrees C. It also gives a bit of flexibility as if it gets really cold out I can turn it up.

Bob

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by John W1 on 08/11/2015 12:09:26:

"We use a heat store for hot water so there is no run up time as there is with combi's"

The run up time is going to be the same regardless of what you have at the boiler end. It's due to the column of water standing in the pipes between it and the tap. Not only do you have to flush the cool water out but you also have to bring the copper pipework up to temp before full temp is achieved. Our Worcester Bosch combi heat exchanger was kept at temperature at all times and the full 30kW output was available through the hot water outlet if required.

The only way to avoid run up time is to have a circulating hot water system. In these, the hot water runs around a circuit rather like CH. When you turn the tap on, hot water is almost instantly available. Of course the downside is that you are constantly incurring heat loss from the whole circuit which is why they tend to be found in very high end properties.

In my view, the main downside of the combi system was the tendency of the control loop to fight the thermostatic shower valves – and the radiator TRVs fighting with the room thermostat (eg at my mother's house). With a system fitted with TRVs, it makes little sense to have a room thermostat and as mentioned it can actually cause conflict (boiler overtemp protection).

Murray

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Muzzer on 08/11/2015 12:50:28:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2015 11:52:34:

Heat Pumps … Great idea, if only they weren't so noisy.

Does anyone remember the [Electrolux, I think] refrigerator that had no motor and was almost silent in operation? … I don't suppose that design could be scaled-up.

MichaelG.

Silent fridges are now in widespread use – ideal for hotel rooms and bedrooms. But they are based on Peltier cells (which are consequently available for peanuts on ebay / AliXpress etc). Didn't there also use to be gas powered fridges at one time?

.

The Electrolux fridge was a standard [evaporative cycle] unit, but with no compressor; it just had a small heating capsule inside … and yes, there was a gas powered equivalent.

Seemed like a very elegant system; but it presumably had some disadvantage, or we would all be using them.

… It should be possible to drive one of these with direct Solar Heating from a lens or a parabolic reflector.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Interesting link here

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 08/11/2015 13:38:48

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

Many moons ago we had a small worktop fridge which was powered by paraffin, was a cracker if adjusted right it would freeze stuff,don't know if they can still be got

Mick

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

My Camper van has a Ga/Electric fridge. Just right for chilling a bottle of wine to go with the ready meal at the end of a days driving.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

We ran it with no thermostat for a long time, unusual at the time and just used the radiator valves. Pump life suffers though so eventually I fitted a thermostat.

John W1,

Re your above comment, we have lived in the current, and last house, for 28 years and when we moved in the only temp control was the radiator thermostats and still is, the boiler shuts down when its own thermostat turns it off but the pump runs all the time and doesnt turn off and has been running for at least 20 plus years, we dont have seperate hot water and radiator circuits either and during the summer months just shut the radiator valves. It doesnt come any simpler and apart from replacing the old radiator thermostats it works well and our bills I consider to be good infact we are always in credit with the bills.

Martin P

[JAParticipant @ja]

I vaguely remember gas "fired" refrigerators. I guess that electricity won in the 1960's when gas was perceived dirty. This perception ended with the introduction of natural gas but by then electrical refrigerators had won the market.

I once read an article about the gas industry trying to develop a gas wireless during the 1920s. Does anyone know anything about this or did I fall for an April fool's spoof?

JA

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Martin P – Are you sure about that, very unusual to mix the two circuits as the radiator water is not normally fit for washing in and most systems have a rust inhibitor in the circuit.
BobH

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Martin P – Are you sure about that, very unusual to mix the two circuits as the radiator water is not normally fit for washing in and most systems have a rust inhibitor in the circuit.
BobH

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

BobH,

Sorry badly written, what I meant was we don't have motorised valves so the boiler heats the radiators and emersion tank via the same circuit and the only way we can turn off the radiators off is via the thermostat valves on them.

Martin P

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 08/11/2015 15:19:58:

Martin P – Are you sure about that, very unusual to mix the two circuits as the radiator water is not normally fit for washing in and most systems have a rust inhibitor in the circuit.
BobH

I expect the water in the system just passes through the coil withing the hot water cylinder and never comes into contact with what comes out the tap which is a very common installation.

Edit Martin beat me to it

Edited By JasonB on 08/11/2015 15:27:39

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Jason, an indirect could also be a Primatic cylinder if it is old although they are not very common.

My house has a combination of under floor (on timber suspended floors) and radiators on the upstairs floors, all with TRV's and room stats along with a pressurised hot water system heating a large house (circa 600m2). I did have it fully insulated all over internally when it was refurbished and used the PIR foam boards at 68mm thick IIRC which makes a huge difference. I have a system boiler due to the number of bathrooms (I need a lot of flow if they are being used) but modern combi could easily have coped with the heating and a couple of bathrooms – baths are the big problem for combi boilers as they need to fill at a decent rate or the women get teed off waiting…. Even on a system this size I don't need a massive expansion vessel – they are both the same size (Hot water system needs one for the pressurised tank).

The advantage to all that is that I have a conservatory over my workshop areas and need no heating as the pipe work for the under floor was left with some of it exposed and it keeps me nice and like toast most of the time. The cost to heat this house is only marginally more than a standard sized semi – around £2200 a year!

Mark

[Anonymous]

Posted by Mark C on 08/11/2015 16:02:24:

The cost to heat this house is only marginally more than a standard sized semi – around £2200 a year!

Marginally more than a semi? I wouldn't think £2000 or so was reasonable, at least not in this house, a 70's 3 bed detached with a 20 year old gas boiler system costs us £1200 a year gas AND electric. Also we are in the highish Staffordshire Moorlands which could never be classed as warm area.

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Mick,

That is combined gas/electric and I thought that was a good price. Lighting and electrical is all modern high efficiency (led etc.) – Perhaps I should look at the supplier again

Mark

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Gas fridges run the ammonia cycle which was inefficient but the only practical system before small electric motors to make small compressors and someone invented Freon. Still used in some big installations like a winter Olympic toboggan run right through some small town recently. Locals a bit worried about what will happen when it leaks.

Edited By Bazyle on 08/11/2015 17:55:19

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Bazyle, I also vaguely remember gas fridges – ours was a cream colour I think and had a red makers badge at the back in front of the exhaust. I know that's where the exhaust was because I also learnt that an exhaust gets hot at the same time….

I don't know how we did not all end up dead given the amount of CO that must have been around – just as well we did not have UPVC windows and doors!

I also remember learning how to solder with a "proper" soldering iron – the sort that had a lump of copper on the end of a steel shaft that you stuck on the gas cooker (or in the fire if tea was being cooked).

Mark

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

This house is a "bit" bigger than a semi as it has 3 floors. The area of each floor is bigger than a typical semi. Some space is waisted by having a rather large hall. We just had the october to october gas figure £1300. A bit less than last year, maybe because I flushed the system backwards and did one or two other things. There are a number of reasons why few of the windows are double glaze, mainly stone mullions on the front. As I mention solid brick walls. Now we are retired the house has to be heated as required.

The first pump lasted a long long time, replacements didn't. The original make and type wasn't available any more when it went. From my experiences with them I would say that typical life time gets less and less as time goes on but the pump has a hard time heating the heat store so that's where problems show up as the flow rate drops off due to wear.

The systems I have seen that don't have a Y plan or what ever valve usually use convectional flow to heat the hot water and a pump to get water through the radiators so all the heating controls do is run the pump when central heating is needed.

John

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[BarrydrumParticipant @barrydrum]

Many caravans still use gas fridges. Most new fridges for caravans are gas/electric.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Gentlemen,

After reading this thread I went to my providers account and I found for my end of terrace three bed roomed house of average size, with cavity wall insulation and loft insulation and double glazed windows my estimated bill this year will be £1500 for electric and gas which I dont think is to bad.

Martin P

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Something that John just posted about retirement, being in the house more then the fuel consumption rises. Also anyone on BP pills will feel the cold as their blood is thinned so need more warmth. How do i know, ask my wife! Then again more snack meals are cooked, and cups of tea or coffee all day.

There are so many variables so one set up does not match another, all you can do is tune the system to its best economy. The bit about a Domestic hot water pumped system interests me as i wait ages for hot water at the sink in the kitchen, but how to intervene in that water circuit without ripping the house apart.

Clive

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Martin,

I agree, I thought my 2200 was a good price but you have to wonder? Perhaps I should be biting on a pencil when the bill comes?

Mark

PS, I work from home Clive!

Edited By Mark C on 08/11/2015 20:03:58

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Clive,

I'm not far off retirement, a couple of years, but from October to June this year I had eight months off house bound with a medical problem, my wife is also house bound with a medical problem, and our monthly bills have averaged the same including now I'm back at work, we've always managed to not override the timer but always keep a jumper handy should the need arise .

Martin P

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