Welder wiring

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

I got a big set of welding equipment, sticks, masks, welder, etc.

The main highlight, the welder is a Pickhill Bantam and originally thought "Oh darn, its a 3 phase one I will have to sell it".

This is where the supply cable goes into the body, notice that the cable has a black, blue, green/yellow and brown wire. But only the blue, black and green/yellow is wired into the machine.

The black is on a stud labeled 400 and there is another empty stud below that labelled 240. Should I switch it?

On the voltage section it says 240V, 400V and 415V.

Does anyone know if it can be used on 1PH?

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

[Dave DanielsParticipant @davedaniels93256]

That looks very much like my long gone Cytringhan Bantam welder.

IF it is you can use it on 1 Ph. 240V. I did on a 16A supply but you can't get the full grunt from it.

The 415V is obtained between 2 phases, not 3 IIRC. but not certain.

You may get some confirmation by searching for Cytringhan Bantam info.

 

Beware! The oil may have PCB's in it … if it's ancient

 

D.

 

Edited By Dave Daniels on 04/04/2016 17:53:06

[densleighParticipant @densleigh]

Looks to be the solution move from 400v connection to 240v connection.

If in doubt ring them up and they will advise.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

One of the connection is common, if I remember correctly. I had one years ago and it had a broken connection, I lifted the lid and carried out a repair, it worked well. As some one else has already said, you will need a dedicated circuit if you need to get full amperage, 13 am socket outlet isn't enough. I think I wired in some 6mm cable and one of those RED industrial plug and socket. They are excellent welders, I seem to remember the open circuit voltage was 80 volts so it is easy to strike an arc. Pickhill ,where they were made is near Thirsk in North Yorkshire and some one else told me it was a copy of another welder. Either way they are a good piece of kit to have. Regarding PCB well we used it by the 40 gallon barrel in the 1960/70 and I'm still, not sure about the other lads who I worked with. Safety wasn't heard of until later. John

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Looks much the same as my old OXFORD welder which in addition had an 80V tapping for single carbon brazing (a bit old hat now).
BobH

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

As Dave said above, those old oil cooled welders are a bit strange in that they only use 2 phases + earth of a 3 phase supply. You will be able to hook it up to single phase, the live will go to the 240 v stud. I run mine on a 20amp supply, but don't expect to burn much more than a 3.25 rod, I usually use 2.5's which is big enough for most home use.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi Rainbows

Re Dave Daniel's comment regarding the possibility of the transformer oil containing PCBs. The label in your photograph of the control switch states, in very small print, that the transformer should be filled with Shell Diala B Oil. A quick search found this data sheet which states that Diala B contains NO PCBs so if they stuck with that then there should be no problem, one hopes.

Martin

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Update! Neutral wire goes to 0 and the live wire goes to 240. And that way it kind of works.

Two days back my Aldi stick welder had the electrode holder fall off and I used 2.5mm sticks at 80A on that one.

With this one I tried the same thing and and after a few seconds the 13A fuse blew in the welder plug. While I knew that doing 180A would probably cause something to blow I didn't expect 80A to do anything untoward. That said I was using an extension cord because I didn't want to move the welder (its heavy), not sure if that effects it.

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

it looks very muck like the old oxford set that i have, and yes the live is on the 240 pin, i have mine on a 16A blue plug, and in domestic settings off the cooker circuit, but i have run 6mm rods all day welding 1/2" plate to the hull of a boat with no issues, much prefure the oil filled ark welders, i find them much smoother on start up, and in general

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

I only have an Aldi welder to compare to but it did start beautifully when I first stuck the 1 and 2.5mm rods, probably won't  be able to go back to the aldi now. It might stay on 13A plug on a temporary basis for using tiny rods till I can get a 16A plug wired.

 

Was connecting it to the cooker circuit something that was done DIY? I have some electrical knoledge but never attempted to wire a house before.

 

Edited By Rainbows on 04/04/2016 23:10:23

[Allan BParticipant @allanb]

i always plug stuff like heavy welders or trasformers into the cooker circuit, normally just through the plug that is next to the switch, because a normal household circuit is only 16A but the cooker is normally 30 or 32A so will take the initial surge better, i now have a dedicated 45A breaker in the garage that i run big stuff off which works well, and with the 16A blue plugs not having a fuse helps, even if its not best practice, it should really be on a 32A plug but that would mean just having a dedicated plug just for the welder and i dont use the stick ark that often any more at home, its mainly only used on heavy stuff on site

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

If you run the welder from a ring main, the ring should be fused at 30 amp (32 amp if circuit breaker), the problem normally is the 13amp fuse in the plug. This is why you may see this welder with a higher rated plug than the domestic 13amp plug. The other problem is that the surges may trip the RCD. You should be able to run the welder off any 13amp socket providing it doesn't trip the RCD.
BobH

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I too had one, in fact I once went for a job at Pickhill, didn't get it tho'. I had it wired thru' the cooker circuit using old round pin plug ,no fuse. BTW sold the cooker first and bought a gas one so no extra load on circuit. Ran 4mm rods no bother, also easier to use on thin rods than the smaller diy welders. Still using the circuit but with a more modern fan-cooled welder ( easier to move about ).

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

If the ring circuit is fused for 30-32A would it be possible to just stick a bit of steel rod where the fuse goes and weld? Would that just be walking right into a "darwin award" death and/or set the house on fire?

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

Please don't. What I have done, and this is most likely not approved- Wire in a fused spur, wire in a 3 pin socket after that and fit a round 3 pin plug to the welder. Fit a 20 amp fuse to the spur. I used a cooker socket which has a standard square pin plug socket also, comes in useful. If the welder comes with a industrial type round plug then fit the socket after the fused spur.

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

Yeah that sounds a lot more safe and proper. Will go about getting the parts for that.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

It's a single phase transformer, regardless of the voltage you connect it too – there is only one primary winding with several voltage taps. If you have 3-phase, you'd connect across any 2 phases (415V) – this is better than connecting from one phase to neutral (230V) as the current is lower.

One issue that comes up with large transformers is the tendency to saturate periodically at turn-on. Despite what people assume, there isn't an inherent surge current when connecting a transformer, as it's just an inductive load. However, you will find that when disconnected, there can be some remaining magnetisation of the cores ("remanance&quot which depends on exactly when in the cycle the mains is removed. If you then reapply the mains at the right (wrong?) instant, the cores can be driven to saturation due to additive magnetisation. The only cure is to fit a soft start which could be as simple as a timer and a resistor. A slow (type C) MCB may help – but usually not.

Murray

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Muzzer on 05/04/2016 14:44:32:

The only cure is to fit a soft start which could be as simple as a timer and a resistor. A slow (type C) MCB may help – but usually not.

Or run it on a long uncoiled 13A extension lead.

Neil

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Unlikely to make any significant difference. If the welder is rated at something like 30A on the primary, the winding resistance will be a small fraction of an Ohm.

I'd estimate about 0.5 Ohm for a 15m long 13A extension cable (30m return length), so hundreds of amps current fault current on a good day.

As for the voltage drop would you expect across the extension with 13A flowing – probably about 6.5A on that basis ie 85W dissipation in the cable which feels about right – and why it's not a good idea to run it coiled up as you noted.

I did some testing on my large Interlas TIG welder some years ago when figuring out how to prevent nuisance tripping when I switched it on. I fitted a delay timer / resistor soft start circuit controlled by the start switch. The resistance has to be large enough to limit the saturation current but low enough to be able to generate something close to the normal magnetisation current. In practice, that results in a value of a few Ohms which is more than you could tolerate under any load. Typical cable resistances aren't in the right range.

Best solution is to use a proper phase control soft starter but these cost serious money.

Edited By Muzzer on 05/04/2016 22:50:43

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

So heres the wiring situation:

The outhouse actually has its own fusebox (see it on the first image mounted to the right of the beam) with two fuses. One white (4A) and one blue (15A).

I'm assuming the 4A fuse controls the lights while the 15A goes left across the beam and down the wall to the two double plugs.

The I opened the spur box to check what amp the fuse was and uh… There wasn't a fuse in (why is it even there the fuse box is right next to it). When I turned the fusebox back on the plugs still worked without even putting the insert in. I didn't open the insides but I'm guessing the fuse blew once and instead of replacing it someone just ran the cables straight through the box and bypassed the fuse.

This 15A circuit has a fridge attached to it, a washing machine, a tumble drier and then tools. Usually not all at once but the fridge is always on. This leads to 2 questions:

1. Can I change out the 15A fuse for a 30A fuse by changing the wire?

2. Should I change the fuse wire to 30A? Cause I imagine that if I have the 15A in then the welder would break it. But at the same time lets say the scenario is that no tools are welders are connected and the only thing running is the fridge. Then I have the problem of that the fridge could probably catch fire before the 30A fuse went. Don't know how realistic that is.

I mean maybe 15A could power it anyway? Through the power of google and various forums and diy sites I now know a lot more about mains wiring than I did 2 days ago. I might still just get a qualified electrician depending on how much he would cost.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

That little fusebox looks like an outlet for a fixed appliance ie: a cable would come out of that round hole straight to the appliance. The appliance would then have its own fuse sitting in that box. The circuit looks like a ring main and doesn't need a fuse in that box. Unfortunately, that fuse box has a fuse limit of 13 amps, so you could not wire your welder into it and put a 20 amp fuse in the box as it would not fit.

BobH

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