Watch servicing

[Steve CrowParticipant @stevecrow46066]

I have a very nice German automatic watch – a Sinn 656.

I've had it from new for 10 years now and wear it all day every day. It loses 2 seconds a day which is nice and predictable, a minute a month.

It has a Swiss ETA 2824-2 movement – a common workhorse.

I know I'm going to have to get it serviced sooner or later, it's just the cost that I can't come to terms with. Currently more than half the market value of the watch.

Service prices have rocketed in the last 10 years. I think this is to do with the renaissance of the mechanical watch especially vintage. There are all those 60's Rolex and Omega's out there now worth silly money waiting to be serviced and a limited number of watchmakers.

I am tempted to wear it till it dies and replace it but this particular watch was discontinued a few years back.

Has anyone any suggestions or reccomendations?

Steve

[Steve CrowParticipant @stevecrow46066]

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Later this year, Peterborough S M E are going to have a talk from David W Ketteringham.

He is a horologist, based in Market Deeping, and is good at his job. (I once visited his workshop )

His contact details are on Google, so you could talk to him.

HTH

Howard.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Problem with mechanical watches is although the basic train is relatively simple, like todays cars, it's the gizmos added for extra features. Daddy used to repair watches basically for beer money, later I followed suit but stopped when tie cost of a balance assembly was greater than the cost of the watch to put it in. Sadly, with todays throw away society, many "Repairs" consist of snapping/screwing off the case back and inserting a new battery so the intelligence level for that equates to flipping burgers at Maccy Dees.

Having said that, the cost for replacing the battery in the wifes £100 "Radley" wristwatch is £37. Must be really special tools to take the back off this one, doesn't seem to be a snap back and no notches for a screw back, probably a "pressure" screw back although £37 seems to be a standard for this company as the cost to replace the dangly Scottie on the strap . . .. .£37

Looks like you're going to have bite the bullet Steve. Alternative is to book a holiday just to the east of the east German border, bet there's loads of working watch repairers down the back streets.

 

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 05/01/2020 12:43:21

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

This sort of thing comes down to fashion and how much an item means to the individual. I can only speculate what the manufacturer does during a service ..perhaps an ultrasonic clean, inspection, replacement fo wear parts and some tuning?? It might be quite involved or just a fancy price tag rip-off. A little like having a car serviced at BMW compared to local garage or DIY whch might/might not skimp on important niceties.

I've certainly paid large sums to have nostalgic items serviced that weren't worth as much as the costs of repair. At the same time watches have no real meaning to me beyond telling the time and i have a price point limit. That used to be £10 but I'm having to make some concessions to inflation soon the last one is some 3 yrs old so good value.

I can understand why folk might just buy a replica rolex for an eighth of the service costs of a real one – also less to upset one if getting mugged.

Silly true story: I was in a ghetto on a carribbean island holiday having a proper meal and on the way back to hotel got stopped by a machete wielding local who demanded my watch and money. When i explained I wsn't going to fight him over it I took off my watch and handed it over ponting out it was a cheapo jobbie with dodgy strap.

He gave it back "I don' want that c***, mon".

So i thanked him, nicely and explained i only had a couple of dollars on me so could I buy him a drink? He was a bit taken aback until i pointed out that the police would be a waste of time and this way we could part friends and he could tell his pals I wasn't worth robbing.

[AJSParticipant @ajs]

You may not know that there is an ongoing court case between Swiss watch manufactures who are restricting the supply of spare watch parts and Cousins Material House who supply watch parts to repairers in this and other countries.

This is making it much more difficult, if not impossible for the lone repairer, to carry on business and hence the "big boys" can increase their prices.

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

ETA 2824 movement……..I have no interest in watch matters, but do I remember clearly that this is a readily replaceable movement and cost about £60…?? it could be cheaper in the long run to tip the movement in the bin and whack in a new one, probably the same/nearly the same cost as a 'service' charge.

……Might be wrong as i'm no 'watchy' however at EFHC we have a whole watch section and they buy movements in bulk such as that in TAG-Heuer which are between £40 & £80 (in £1500 watch!!)

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The bigger problem is companies don't want or can't actually fix things. They uust want to replace "modules" or sell you a new one. This means owners of those items that can't be replaced are forced to pay high prices. Recent examples

My car has a worn bearing causing noise in 6th gear. It's a known problem (M32 'box). bearing are in the end cover so easy to change I talked to my local garage nd they won't do it. They will only fit an exchange garbox. I'll go bck and negotiate them re-moving nd refitting the gearbox with me taking it away and doing the bearing myelf.

A friend asked me to look at a Singer sewing machine that the local repair shop said was not repairable. I quickly found that the flying hook drive gear had broken up, This is a polyurethene gear with a metal hub. New gear cost £3. The problem is it is press fitted to the shaft flush to the bottom of the hook so getting the old hub off is an issue, but I just split it with a cutting disk in a dremel and pressed the new one on.

As to labour costs, near me there are a Jaguar and Ford Dealerships on the same site. The Jaguar labour rate is twice that of the Ford but a Jaguar X type is basically the same car as a Ford Mondeo,,,,,,,,

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

There are definitely issues with the supply of parts for mechanical watches and it is clear that groups such as Swatch seek to control the servicing of their movements to increase overall margin.

However…if there is going to be anyone around to service mechanical clocks and watches in the future they will need to be able to earn not just a living wage but something in line with the level of knowledge and skill required. If you grudge them that then buy a Swatch quartz and throw it away when it breaks.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 05/01/2020 14:06:23:

As to labour costs, near me there are a Jaguar and Ford Dealerships on the same site. The Jaguar labour rate is twice that of the Ford but a Jaguar X type is basically the same car as a Ford Mondeo,,,,,,,,

When I worked at a motor factors in the seventies we sold trim clips which came in boxes of 100 direct from Tucker's – the manufacturers.

One clip was a T shaped plastic thing that had a hammer in stalk and was used to hold chrome strips onto the side of cars. Round the corner was a Ford dealer and customers told me that this clip, if you said you wanted one for a Cortina or similar was twice the price there. Curiosity set in and after making a few enquiries over the phone I discovered it was dearer again at a Triumph dealer, and more expensive than that if you went to the other end of the counter in that same dealer where they sold Rover spares.

A friend (Chairman of the local ME club at that time) ran an independent Rolls Royce and Bentley garage and we sold him trim clips. I wonder what he charged for them?

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

Interestingly, I inquired recently at a local high street jewellers to have an automatic Seiko serviced. This watch was a retirement present to my late father so holds some sentimental value, I wear it occasionally but it has become a little erratic in it's operation, hence the inquiry. I was astounded to be told that the service charge would be £175 plus parts! I politely declined this service and decided to stick with my £30 battery operated Seconda which I replace with a new one each time the battery dies.

Phil

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Servicing a quality watch is fraught with problems, I have an Omega Seamaster automatic. and after about 40 years put it in for a service. Damn, £120 and they ruined it, they lost the screw that adjusts the advance and retard lever. The movement was covered in scratches, The watch before service was pristine but on return was losing 15 secs a day.

Sent it back and they fitted a definitely too big a screw in that lever and wanted to sharge me £40 for a replacement dial at a discount. I do wear it but it is not the same as it was.

The big watch makers are curtai;ling the spares for quality watches. I also wear a Tag Heuer but find it heavy on my wrist. Value about £1500 but to look inside does not seem value for money but it does run for 3 years on a battery.

My daily wear at the moment is a manual wind Omega Chronostop which is some 50 years old and never yet serviced.

I see now that they are promoting army service watches, Cyma and IWC, maybe Omega too. always stood the test of time and while serving never had a duff one. As an Inst. Tech I always found my way to the wattch repair section in the army repair shops just to talk and watch what they did. I learnt a lot from them.

Edited By Clive Hartland on 05/01/2020 16:27:31

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

This highlights my concern that a lot of traditional skills are going to be extinct. They will still be needed for unusual and classic items, but those who, hopefully, do have the skills and equipment can then name their price.

In 1977, in USA, I was told that a master plumber could name his price. Apparently the ability to solder copper pipe together was an little known art!

Model Engineers and the preservation movement are keeping artisan skills, and knowledge, alive Without them, a lot of things are going to be stuffed and mounted" or just scrapped.

There is a lot of satisfaction to be gained from fixing something that a so called specialist has declared unrepairable.

Witness the following for "The Repair Shop" programme on UK TV.

Howard.

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Hi there, all,

Just out of interest, is repairing the fusee chain in a pocket watch a dying art nowadays? Or dead?!?!

Separate question: I read somewhere that Bridport used to be a manufacturing centre for fusee chains, using teen-age boys to do the work – why and why??

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Very definitely, a case of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' , servicing a good working watch is not going to make it better.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Very interesting transcript of the George Daniels lecture by Roger Smith in the January Horological Journal. He speaks about how to design and make reliable mechanical watches that do not need frequent servicing. You can hear a podcast of the lecture here.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Service issued aircrew watches were Omega until the year I joined! The bean-counters decided on a money-saving change to Woolworth's Mk 1 Specials, or some such. I replaced my watch 3 times in the first year! I bought an Omega manual Seamaster in Aden in the mid 50s and still have it (lying in a drawer). When I retired,I did a part-time job for a watch-seller friend and bought a Citizen ECOdrive (customer return). That was some 15 years ago and has never been serviced. Additionally, I set it accurately to GMT about 8 years ago and haven't altered it since; worn all day every day and deviates by a couple of seconds from the time signal. No batteries, of course.

rgds

Bill

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I haven't worn a watch since I got my first mobile phone.

[Sean CullenParticipant @seancullen60833]

There is a horology degree course at Birmingham University where they learn actual physical skills. My nephew is in the second year where he has to service a wide variety of watches having chosen to study watches rather than clocks. Seeing a ladies watch reduced to its component parts I know my eyesight would not be good enough. In the third year they have to make replacement parts themselves.

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

There is, or was, a British School of Watchmaking in the Manchester area

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Epping Forest Horolgy Club has a strong watch following with separate well equipped watch workshop for 14 students at a time complete with large projector screen taking microscope feed from tutors bench etc. We have about 50 watch fanatics (& pro repairers) of all flavours from ancient pocket watches to WWII divers watches to Rolex adjusters to people actually making watches from scratch! We are 15 miles N.E. of central London near to Epping town (central line)

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Technology moves on, my last quartz watch lasted 20 years, I've just replaced it with an identical model. Cost me £20 or so. Wind up watches are obsolete, so very little demand for getting them mended apart from those stupidly expensive things sold in Sunday magazines, and if you're rich enough to buy one of those, you're rich enough to pay an exorbitant price to have it mended.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Which 'kind of ' moves the original question on, to what is it that we want of a watch ?

Like a Moore and Wright micrometer to measure things accurately, or a Lidl version which can double up as a G-Cramp now and then ?

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

And after watching (bad pun) "Longitude". Not only will Harrison be spinning in his grave, HIS pivots will definitely need a refurb if not replacing.

"Throw away chronometers?

Regards Ian.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 05/01/2020 17:09:21:

This highlights my concern that a lot of traditional skills are going to be extinct.

<SNIP>

Witness the following for "The Repair Shop" programme on UK TV.

Howard.

I watched a few episodes of "repair shop" but had to stop. I have a couple of problems with it. First they are not passing on knowledge in particular details of materials used. e.g. a ceramics expert doing a repair with clearly two different adhesives but not a clue as to what type they were or why. Another using a "special solvent" on a motor in a plastic toy again with no details or even a warning that many solvents would destroy the plastic. secondly they show lots of poor practices, bodges, misuse of tools etc.

Back on topic my everyday watch is a 20 year old Breitling Aerospace (the old, compact thin titanium design not the modern chunky "jewellery&quot bought with my small part of the legacy of a relative who was an amateur horologist. The minute hand fell off last month. No sign of a broken staff so just need putting back on as far as I could see. As it was due a battery it was put in for a service and estimate (factory repair). This came back when I was out of the country for work and included repair, service, new crystal and case polish at just under £900. I would have said no thanks and done it myself but SWMBO said OK. Guess that's my birthday present sorted.

Robert G8RPI.

Robert G8RPI.

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