Ward Capstan Lathes

[Alan CharlestonParticipant @alancharleston78882]

I sometimes see these come up for sale for reasonable prices. Has anyone had experience in running one in a home workshop? From what I can gather, putting a centre into the turret would essentially turn one into a centre lathe. They seem to be built like brick outhouses. I suppose a Ward #1 (10&quot would be the one to look out for.

Although they have powered longitudinal feeds, I haven't been able to find out if you can do single point threading on them. They don't seem to have gearboxes for this.

Regards,

Alan

[Alan CharlestonParticipant @alancharleston78882]

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

I worked there a while ago and all threading was done by a Coventry die stock or a roller box to roll the thread it would be to slow to cut a thread on these machines as making parts on these machines as we're counted in seconds for piece work making 250,000 screws in a batch for instance.

David

[Anonymous]

As David says there would be no point in single point threading. I've got a repetition lathe and all my threading is done with Coventry dieheads and taps in a special holder with dog clutches; the lathe doesn't even have leadscrews or dials. All movements are with levers against stops.

Unless you have a need for quantity part manufacture you'll be wasting your time and money with a capstan lathe. They were designed to be set up by a skilled setter and then used by labour working on piece rates. The lathes are cheap for a reason; they are largely obsolete and are pretty much useless without collets and all the accessories. Note collets; my repetition lathe only uses collets in conjunction with a pneumatic bar feeder. There is no facility to fit chucks.

Andrew

[Chris HembryParticipant @chrishembry84309]

Yes I run a 2A in my shop. As you suggest they are very heavily built…..but, as others have said, they are production machines and of no use whatsoever for general hobby use. There is no provision for threading, the leadscrew is driven by a flat belt from the spindle, so there is no guarantee of registration between passes. The cross slide also has a very coarse screw, so fine cuts are not easy to dial in. They are designed to use the turret for all cuts using die heads and roller boxes, the cross slide is for form tools and parting off to a depth stop.

Chris

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

as part of my apprenticeship I spent a few months on a Ward 2a as a setter operator,making batches of parts from 20 to 2000, they were heavy ,well built and never gave much trouble,though a machine which had made vast batches on piecework no doubt took a hammering.when I worked at home there were times that I wished I had a capstan to knock off relatively small numbers of parts,where a lot of drilling and threading was required,Not all capstans were collets only,there are lots of photos in the tech books of the era showing two and three jaw chucks,thread cutting chasing attachments driven by leadscrew attachments,most of the info refers to Herbert capstan lathes,the threading attachment used a number of interchangeable short leadscrews , plus a drive shaft which had a selection of gear ratios.Would it be worth getting a Ward, unless it was free with a lot of equipent and space is no problem I doubt it.I once visited a chap who made lots of parts for the vintage restoration trade,he had at least 3 Ward Capstans,which he aquired very reasonably, he used each one for just one material, so that he could keep the swarf clean and get top price for the swarf. It may not occurr to the modern generation ,in the old days of very tight costing the value of the swarf or sheet material left after pressing was the profit from the job.

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

I am another ex Ward 3A Capstan operator, and I remember there was a facility to add a chuck to them, I made thousands of gear blanks using chucks. I believe the lever operated collet chuck assembly could be removed to fit a chuck. Not something one would do daily, but fitting chucks is possible. The chucks we used were paradoxically Alfred Herbert chucks with soft jaws held on serratted carriers within the chuck body. In my section we had a number of machines with collet chucks and bar feed, and a few with chucks. We stayed with our allocated machine, and I remember using both chucks and collets on it. I wish I had the room for one now, I thought they were fantastic machines to run and make stuff fast. One thing sticks in my mind and that is the huge dial on the crosslide and the small coloured spring clips one could attach to the dial to indicate where to stop for different diameters on the job in hand.

Chris Gunn

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I worked on many Ward capstans in the 70s – they were regarded as budget machines compared to the better-equipped and better-made Herberts, but they were certainly very capable.

Three-jaw chucks were used most often with soft jaws, bored and shouldered for second-opping thin components – otherwise collets were much more common, but that would vary with type of work.

I had occasion to use a Ward 3DB (I think) recently. I was very impressed with its robust construction and considerable power – I was taking 200 thou depth of cut in a ~3.5" mudhole-door boring job, quite a few cubic inches of steel per piece to remove.

If there are batches of a few dozen or more suitable parts to be made often, and you've plenty of space for it, it might just about be worthwhile for a model engineer to have one of the smaller sizes.

[Alan CharlestonParticipant @alancharleston78882]

Thanks for the info. Given that these were common machines, it's a bit surprising there's not more about them on the interweb. I found one item on youtube where a guy was running a #1 machine in a home workshop and a few historical items but that's about it. I suppose that when the kits for retrofitting electronic threading systems fall to a reasonable price lathes like this could become more attractive.

Regards,

Alan

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Alan I am not sure what threading you need to do but the Ward Capstans used Coventry die heads, there are plenty about, and reconditioned ones too. However using a die head does limit the type of part you can thread, but in the factory I worked in any screw cutting would be done on centre lathes, so the need for screwcutting did not arise in the case of the capstans. We would use a die head for quantities of any oddball screw or pin that needed a thread on the end. Bear in mind there is not a lot of bed length to play with on a Capstan, but that may not be an issue for you.

Chris Gunn

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Nigel –

I think it more usual that it's not the price of waste as off-cuts and swarf that is accounted for. The scrap value is minimal and probably less than than the machine-cleaner's time. Instead the customer pays for the total of the raw materials. Most ends up in the scrap bin, but there may be enough remaining for other work.

I was for several years the materials store-keeper for a printing-machine manufacturer, when it had a machine-shop making the bulk of the smaller components. Nowadays it has them all made outside.

The record was of the total length of bar or area of plate used per batch of blanks. The remainder from stock length was returned to store or if scrapped, its length added to the issue.

The aluminium plate blanks I cut for some components were large L-shapes so the enclosing rectangle was that issued. Using the rectangular off-cuts for some other parts, was a bonus by double-charging – though the overheads of my fixed labour cost probably negated that!

'

Around the same time, I orderd two or three large, flame-cut rings in 3/4" steel plate, from a neighbouring company, for my own model-engineering project. When I paid and collected them I saw the discs from the centres, propping up up the wall.

"Oh, and those as well please!"

The man looked surprised.

"I work in a factory stores", I said, "I know how these things are charged for, so I know I have just paid for them as well as the rings".

The bloke duly picked them up and put them on the counter for me.

–

So a lesson – if you ever order a stock length or area but ask it be cut to sizes…. ask for the remainder unless the sale is clearly by cut metre / square metre.

(I assume craft suppliers such as ours, buying wholesale mill lengths but selling by foot or metre cut lengths, share the remainder cost around the price per sold unit, as part of the overheads component.)

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Alan Charleston on 31/05/2021 07:01:50:

Thanks for the info. Given that these were common machines, it's a bit surprising there's not more about them on the interweb.

…

Probably because there's not much call for them.

Few amateurs need to repeat the same set of operations for hours on end. For what I do, a capstan lathe's lack of flexibility outweighs it's wonderful ability to do repetition work. As I rarely make multiple identical parts the machine solves a problem I don't have, and is limited in areas I do care about,

Professional outfits aren't keen on Capstan Lathes because operators are so expensive. Costs drive them towards CNC, ideally replacing lines of machines and men with a single multi-axis machine centre driven directly with CAD/CAM. My local machining company has about 30 machine centres plus 2 manual lathes and a manual mill for the sort of odd jobs not worth setting up CNC for. No capstan lathes or other basic automatics. Not sure how many operators they employ : certainly less than one per machine.

Dave

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[brickyParticipant @bricky]

I owned a Ward 2A which I bought to turn up the wheels of my 2" traction engine as they would not fit on my Myford.It cost £300 and I found it useful for many jobs,I loved the ridgity of it but it had a 5 horse single phase motor when starting I had to ease the clutch in slowly or all the house power would fuse.I neede the space so it had to go and I sold it to a local factory for whatI paid for it.

Frank

[robjon44Participant @robjon44]

Hi all, not long before I retired, about 5 years ago, as the programmer setter operator of a Colchester Tornado CNC machine ( their only lathe ) I became a little disenchanted with people demanding that I break down a volume job on the auto to make some 1 off, it would in fact have been quicker for me to walk home 3 miles, do the job in my workshop & walk back again! However I did talk them into buying a Ward 3DB for this sort of thing, having found 1 on Fleabay that appeared to be in good nick,(£900) upon arrival its only fault was a small hole in the tray which I repaired with 2 tap washers 2 penny washers & a nut & screw, BUT imagine my astonishment to find that it was also fitted with a copying attachment! Of all the Ward 2,2A,3,3A &3DB models I have seen & or operated that was the only one. Eventually however I was called upon to tread the primrose path of CNC machining which I continued to do for the remaining 45 years of my working life, them campervans don't pay for themselves you know!

BobH

[Author]

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