Warco WM250 Lathe and Warco WM18 Milling machine (Advice please)

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hello All,

Although I don't know this specific machine, I understand that it has a tilting head and the angle can be set on some graduation.

As some on here are aware, Warco have a policy of dealing with matters off forum. Out of curiosity, I asked old Mr.Warren about the WM18 which was returned/taken back by him. He explained that the head was in a tilted position, and not in the zero position. His guys put it back to zero on the graduation, conducted test, and all was found to be in order. I have Mr.Warren's permission to post this, as I explained to him that it is important for people to understand if and what the problem was or could have been.

ARC had come across a similar issue some three weeks ago, where a newbie said that he had returned an SX3 to a competitor supplier, and found the same problem with a second SX3, which he was about to return to them because it had the same head spindle related problem.. He then wanted to know if what we sold was any better. We asked him how he had conducted his tests, only to discover some flaws. We told him how to conduct the test, and we have failed to hear from him again, with hope that he has discovered that there wasn't really a problem.

ARC had yet another person suggesting that his milling chuck fell apart during milling. When the gentleman sent us the picture, it was clear that the end mill was being held in a drill chuck and arbor.

We are finding that there are a growing number of people entering the hobby with very little knowledge, but with a lot of enthusiasm, which does need to be encouraged. A good example could be the backplate thread.

It is easy to consider that the seller or the buyer is wrong, depending on your point of view. But perhaps we should try and understand the limitations of the poster too?… especially new posters?… This is in no way discouraging a newbie from the hobby, but at the same time, perhaps we should think a bit more about if there is really a machine or a user related issue. This point could be debated till the cows come home, but that is far from what I am trying to say.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ketan, did Roger explain how the head tilt was affecting the nod  (quill nod specifically) of the machine as the OP had no proplem with sideways alignment it was front to back which was causing issues?

 

Edited By JasonB on 17/05/2018 18:45:47

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

You said that

 

"His guys put it back to zero on the graduation"

 

That aint an accurate way to tram the head at all the graduation is for a rough guide not for tramming it accuratly.

Either way I know for sure the machine was faulty.

Lets just hope he dont now try to resell it then seeing as he says its all ok.

 

As said it was the nod I had issues with not tilt.

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 18:35:00

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Ketan,

Your above post deserves applause.

It certainly clarifies information that was lacking.

I fully agree with your sentiment, that beginners to the hobby should be encouraged, often with a good dose of patience. Indeed I am one (beginner). The forum is a wonderfully friendly place and a treasure trove of information. No question is unanswered.

Altruism is a rare commodity these days, but here it is pleasantly abundant.

I'm only sorry that Mr Warren has to pay for this person's learning curve. That seems a bit harsh.

Best,

Daniel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Don't get carried away yet Danila, as STK got OK results from clocking the head in both directions which the swivel would affect one, but it was the quill that was excessively out and I can't see how the swivel would affect that. I think it has clouded the water not cleared things up.

Edited By JasonB on 17/05/2018 18:49:09

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Ketan​ , your last two paragraphs raise a very pertinent point about the limited knowledge and it is difficult to see how this situation can be remedied now that schools have largely abandoned metal/wood work teaching and UK plc has much fewer small scale engineering enterprises. Those that there are do not seem to want the hastle of training school leavers and in this area seem to be staffed by a lot of grey hair! I doubt if there are many Adult Education classes around the country for the enthusiastic young working man who now has some disposable income to take up this hobby and so 'dives in at the deep end' so to speak. There is perhaps an attitude issue as well, for many years education has told all children that all learning has to be 'fun'​ and as in the recent case mentioned it was declared almost laughingly, that 'it's only a hobby'​ preumably meaning that it's some sort of play, fun, activity. Would it perhaps help if model engineering and similar magazines made their indexes of instructional articles much more obvious and more readily available to the newcomer who, having little if any knowledge or nearby assistance, can quickly learn some basics?

Trevor.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

yes I zeroed it left to right TRAM

I then checked zero back to front NOD it was 0.006" out.

I then looked deeper to find the reason being was the head was either mounted wrong or as Warren him self suggested the bearings in the head was machined out wrong.

 

As for calling me a Noobie I have been using mills,lathes,boring machines,line boring machines,CNC machines ETC and making white metal bearings for cars all my life dont take this as a I know it all as I dont and never will no one could possibly learn EVERY thing in the trade.

 

But when I check some thing as seen from this thread I make damn sure I am right first before saying to much and I always as also seen in this thread double triple check every thing.

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 18:55:36

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 18:56:03

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 18:56:23

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Hi Jason,

Point taken.

"Seek and ye will fynde", is an expression that has been calling out to me from the beginning of this thread, though.

It was clear from the outset that the op was hell bent on examining his purchase(s), to an extent that he would be almost certain to find something amiss.

My workshop is equipped almost entirely of Chinese imported machines. I have no delusion. One has to reflect on the price one is paying, and accept that certain compromises must be made.

If he had followed earlier advice, and just simply got started on his first project, instead of searching for what must be wrong, he may well have found that his machine performed perfectly adequately.

Later on, as his abilities developed, he may have noticed it's shortcoming. But, at that stage, would simply have either shimmed or rectified the relevant mating parts.

We cannot, and never will, have a Rolls Royce for the price tag of a Trabant. Simple fact of life.

Coincidentally, as mentioned in an earlier post, I also bought a WM18 clone a few weeks ago.

I haven't checked it, other than a cursory check that all bolts and screws were indeed tight. So far, it has performed admirably in all that has been asked from it. But, I'm sure I could find something wrong, if I looked hard enough.

A bad workman blames his tools. A good workman makes his tools right.

Cheers,

Daniel

 

Edited By Daniel on 17/05/2018 19:09:41

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

…. And I'm not Daniella

At least …………Not yet

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Daniel, I too have an all far eastern workshop so don't expect Hardinge or Acacia build quality of tollerances . However the OP did make a test cut and the resulting saw tooth finish was when most of us said to get Warco involved and with readings 3x greater than the max allowed on the test cert in an axis that can't be adjusted what could he do.

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

I said at the start of this thread I did not expect mega low tolerances.

Yes I was hell bent on checking the machine and insureing it FIT FOR PURPOSE and it was not any one who does not check there machines when delivered are nuts.

I also did take advice and did a light face milling and it showed the fault up as expected I even posted pictures of the issue.

When I rang Warco with the issue I did ask did they not check it like there web site STATES

"Every milling machine we supply is fully checked and tested by a member of our qualified team, and is supplied with an individual accuracy test report."

They then told me there check is to plug it in and make sure it spins up.

Well thats not a FULL check nor does it reqiure a damn qualified team member to do such a check.

I was told for them to check every machine like that would reqiure specialist tools and time.

They sell the tools needed to do such a check as for the time reqiured it would be a lot cheaper in the long run for them if there was a faulty machines befor they send them out.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Page 12, it's history now anyway, maybe time to lay this thread to bed

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Jason,

Mr.Warren only told me the results of the tests they had conducted upon return. Non of us know the full story. I don't know if his guys tightened something 'to remove' the nod front/back and if it was at the head – between head and column, or between column and base, at the time of zeroing the head – left/right. All I know is that it wasn't a big deal.

Non of us know if the head had moved during the moving/transport and installation process, and if as a result of that the observations which STK2008 made came into effect.

STK2008:

1. Relax my friend – I didn't call you a Noobie . I said: " This is in no way discouraging a newbie from the hobby, but at the same time, perhaps we should think a bit more about if there is really a machine or a user related issue.

2. Even if you have been using mills,lathes,boring machines,line boring machines,CNC machines ETC and making white metal bearings for cars all your life, it does not make you – or me – a machine tool fitter. I have made this point in another thread. I have been in the trade of selling hobby machines for 18 years, and I have turned away business from some/certain/specific 'time served engineers' based on what they say to me, pre-purchase, because I know that what I have to offer them will definitely fail to meet their requirements – in terms of their expectations, or, even though they say they are 'time served engineers' they do not really know what they are talking about, and I don't want their grief post sale. Some 'time served engineers' do not know what a shim is, what scraping is, even what a morse or R8 taper is. Some of them come out of 'blue chip companies'. I didn't know most of this stuff when I entered this business, and there are still many things I don't know.

They, you, me may be good at what we do, but as you say, no one can know everything, and I say this with respect to you and what you know.

I would strongly support what Daniel said.

Trevor: I agree with your comments. This is why we support the beginners series on the Mill and Lathe by Neil and Jason. It is in very simple language including what a headstock, tailstock, drill chuck, arbor, etc. mean. From scratch. Believe me, you will be surprised by some of the questions we get, and it is important to address them carefully, which I hope the articles will do, provided new people to the hobby follow them. Even I get to learn a thing or two.

Daniel: I strongly agree with what you said.

Ketan at ARC.

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 17/05/2018 20:15:09

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

I don't agree with you David, Warco say that they have corrected the problem and that it was the operator at fault not the machine. However I can not see what the OP was doing wrong? He explained that with the head static there was no issue, however when using the quill in the Z axis, it was not running truely verticle (unless I have misunderstood?).

So how could the OP have simply dialled the movement of the quill withing the casting to correct it?

In essence I am saying that either I have completely not understood the actual nature of the problem, or Warco haven't?

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Yes I tested the column to insure it was correct and it was.

I tested it by moving the whole Z axis up and down with the hand wheel I got a reading of about 0.002".

As soon as I touched the quill it went bat crazy 0.025".

I also took Warcos advice and checked the bolts that hold the head onto the column it made no difference what I did ( i had a verdict mounted to see what happend when I loosend and tightend the bolts I got no movemnt in the DTI meaning it was not that knocking it out of play if I had it to tight or to loose).

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

The one thing I don't quite understand, STK2008, in this whole unfortunate business is why you have completely turned your back on Warco machines and are contemplating buying machinery of very similar build-quality and provenance from another supplier.

My understanding was that Warco were quite ready to supply you with a replacement machine, and I would have thought there was very little likelihood that, if the first machine they supplied was faulty, the second one would be too, my thinking being that under the circumstances Warco would have been highly unlikely not to do a thorough check on the replacement before it was dispatched to ensure it came comfortably within tolerances.

It seems to me that Warco would have "seen you right", and you could have put things behind you and got on with the tasks you wanted the machinery for in the first place. Now you're out in the wilderness again, looking for machinery you apparently do need and worrying that whatever you opt for may in turn not come up to scratch, and that more upheaval and heartache may lie ahead for you.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Ian,

Ummm.. who is David?

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 17/05/2018 19:39:44:

Page 12, it's history now anyway, maybe time to lay this thread to bed

Ketan,

Possibly this chap?

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

Hi Bill yeah I understand your confusion on that one.

I have a very good reason for turning my back on Warco and they to know why.

Yep back in the wild again for sure LOL I am gutted trust me I was ready to wait for the replacement mill from Warco but as said they know why I changed my mind in a split second.

 

Trust me I am so gutted was realy looking forward to the lathe and mill but I am not going to accept some thing that is obviusly faulty even if Warco do not agree.

Edited By STK2008 on 17/05/2018 20:02:57

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Ian Skeldon 2 on 17/05/2018 19:59:35:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 17/05/2018 19:39:44:

Page 12, it's history now anyway, maybe time to lay this thread to bed

Ketan,

Possibly this chap?

Ahhh, I see. thanks.

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

No problem

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Posted by STK2008 on 17/05/2018 19:56:30:

Yes I tested the column to insure it was correct and it was.

I tested it by moving the whole Z axis up and down with the hand wheel I got a reading of about 0.002".

As soon as I touched the quill it went bat crazy 0.025".

I also took Warcos advice and checked the bolts that hold the head onto the column it made no difference what I did ( i had a verdict mounted to see what happend when I loosend and tightend the bolts I got no movemnt in the DTI meaning it was not that knocking it out of play if I had it to tight or to loose).

So let me get this right, the X axis was accurate (within tolerance)? also the Y axis was accurate (again within tolerance)? The z axis was accurate with head to table, however the Z axis of quill to table was not verticly true?

Is that correct?

[STK2008Participant @stk2008]

The quill in the head I believe was bored out on the pee as soon as the quill was extended it moved backwards not straight down.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ian, that's how I understand it, take a look at these two videos and you can see column is quite good but quill is a different matter

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

mmmmm, so if (IF) the square, was true, the quill is sitting out of azimuth in both x and y axis. This should only effect drilling operations in conventional use but does show that assembly is not correct.

I cannot possibly see how this could simply be adjusted out by the owner and despite Daniels post, I don't believe anyone should accept this level of quality and fix it themselves.

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