Warco Super – Major Vario inaccuracy

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

I purchased a WM-14 mill/drill from Warco in March. It took me a while to reorganise my tiny workshop, but I eventually got things organised and started to make a few simple things to get to know the mill.

Some operations didn't go quite according to plan. Accuracy was very difficult to achieve, particularly when trying to drill holes centrally in jobs. My setting up method was to grip the job in the machine vice leaving a short section of jaw showing and clock-up between the two vice jaws to set the mill spindle in the middle of the work. After drilling and reaming the resulting hole I checked that it was central, a discrepancy of about 0.010” was evident.

I re-trammelled the table (with the quill fully raised) and found that everything was fine. I put an angle plate in the table, put a clock in the drill chuck and moved the whole head up and down – that was fine. Then with the clock still in the chuck, I moved the quill up and down the angle plate. Over the full length of the quill travel the clock showed a run out of 0.0” to 0.015” top to bottom. How can this be?

After a couple of days of measuring and adjusting, I have now tracked the problem down to play in the quill of about 0.003”. This doesn't sound much, but when the length of the drill chuck and drill is added it accounts fully for the error. The reason that it doesn't show up when trammelling the table is that when I did this the quill is fully up and the further the quill is lowered so the error increases due to the reduced support it receives from the bore in the head. The quill of the WM-14 has quite a strong return spring so that when fully up the flange at the bottom of the quill is forced against the underside on the head, thus squaring up the spindle and when trammelling the table all appears to be ok.

Sorry for the long rambling explanation – now finally I can get to my questions.

Has anyone else had similar problems and if so, what if anything did they do about it? Is this typical of small mill/drills? Is this all we can expect of Chinese engineering?

I intend to speak to Warco, but wanted to understand the problem first.

Regards

Geoff Manship

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

You obviously understand the problem as you have posted about it, see what Warco have to say about it first.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Chinese machine tools are usually very good. My equivalent mill shows no substatial error and my Warco WM280 VF variable speed lathe is just about as accurate as you can expect from any non toolroom precision spec lathe.

Terry

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/07/2012 14:49:31

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Here's a quote from the Warco website about you miller :-

"Each machine is fully tested by a member of our engineering team and comes with an individual accuracy test report."

Do you have the report so you can compare it against your findings?

Martin.

[CrocadillopigParticipant @crocadillopig]

Hello Geoff

I own a WM-16 which has served me well. As far as I know these machines are very similar in all but size. On mine there is a facility to angle the head to 90 degrees either side of vertical, if this is out of alignment it would cause the type of error you have described. To check this place a cranked bar with a DTI fitted in the chuck and, with the table centralised and in contact, swing the DTI to its full extent and check the reading at both extremities of its travel. If the reading is not the same amount then the head is half that amount out of true and should be adjusted. I beleive later models had a locating pin to align the head, this may have been machined incorrectly or be a loose fit.

Regards Russ

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

Thank you all for your swift replies.

I have just sent Warco an email which I shall follow up with a phone call tomorrow.

The machine did come with a test report. The figure quoted for the vertical movement of the spindle is 0.02mm (0.0008&quot in both directions, but it doesn't make clear if the movement is applied via the quill movement or the head. But either way, I make my error about 19 times their quoted error!

Regards

Geoff Manship

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

Hi Russ,

Iv'e set that up already. That's what I mean by trammelling.

Regards

Geoff Manship

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Geoff,

As John says … you appear to have already diagnosed the problem .

It would be best to give Warco the opportunity to put things right, before doing anything yourself.

Meanwhile however, it may be worth comparing notes with John Waterhouse

… he has a review of the earlier model on his website, and makes some useful comments.

[ no connection; I just found his site on t'internet ]

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If its anything like my X3 then there are a set of lock nuts that adjust the bearings that the spindle run in. Mine had a lot of play when first purchease but once the nuts were adjusted to take out the play I have not had to touch them again in about 5 years.

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

Jason,

Thank you for your posting. The WM-14 is similar to the X3 in as much as the spindle is carried in taper roller bearings that are adjustable. But, on the Warco, the spindle is carried in a conventional quill that raises and lowers independently of the head. The quill runs directly in a bore machined directly in the cast iron head and this is where the play is.

Regards

Geoff Manship

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

Please give Warco a chance to sort this problem out. Most of these foreign machines are fine for what they are built for as long as you go through them and make sure they are set up correctly and are properly adjusted. Things can vibrate loose when shipping them from China, they may get shaken about a bit and so require adjusting.

I doubt Warco answer emails on Sunday so please wait a reasonable time for replies before posting on here.

regards David

Edited By David Clark 1 on 16/07/2012 14:54:47

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

Hi David,

Warco phoned this morning to say that realise that much error is not acceptable, they are working on a solution for me and will get back to me soon.

Regards

Geoff Manship

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Geoff

They would want to rectify any errors because they are a reputable company.

regards David

[Geoff ManshipParticipant @geoffmanship78814]

Hi all,

Problem solved!!!

Warco have been great… on Friday their engineer delivered and fitted a replacement head. He knew his stuff and in a short time the mill was performing the way it should. Everyone that I spoke to at the company was very friendly and helpful.

If anyone has reservations about Warco's after sales service, have no fears, they are good people to deal with.

Thank you Warco.

Regards

Geoff Manship.

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Great to hear

Bought my first bit of equipment from Warco over 40 years ago from Roger's father when they were in Esher at that time the telephone number was Esher and 4 digits.. never failed me now all but one of my machinery in the workshop is supplied by Warco and all give sterling service. Some at first needed a little bit of tweaking and as David (our editor) says comeing from tiawan and china the shippers are not the most gentle handlers. Also I know you Myford et all; diehards will be up in arms but but even a Chester rep once admitted to me once that the machinery was taken to bits copied and improved on. I have converted all my kit (except the metal bandsaw and that has worked perfectly and accurately for about 10 years.) to 3 phase well worth it.

So this is my defence i of Roger Warren and his company my only gripe would be that ALL our UK suppliers who import this machinery should be like Grizzly in the USof A and produce there own readable manuals. What a UK PR first that would be.

Bob T

 

Edited By Springbok on 22/07/2012 19:26:49

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/07/2012 09:57:40

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

In defense of UK suppliers Ketan at ARC puts build manuals on the web site which are better than anything that Grizzly or anyone else does.

Edited By John Stevenson on 22/07/2012 22:00:44

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/07/2012 09:57:58

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

<Ketan at ARC puts build manuals on the web site>

I found the manual for the C3. What about Arc's operation manuals though John, any good?

Maybe we need a new thread, 'Best UK mauanuals'.

My warco manuals (I have a lathe and mill) don't tell you how to start the macine. When I received both machines I had to phone them up to find out how to start them.

It's obvious now of course, but at the time this fool couldn't do it!

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

For some reason this website stops my spall chucker working, I must complain to Dave <s>.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by DerryUK on 23/07/2012 08:45:03:

<Ketan at ARC puts build manuals on the web site>

I found the manual for the C3. What about Arc's operation manuals though John, any good?

Maybe we need a new thread, 'Best UK mauanuals'.

My warco manuals (I have a lathe and mill) don't tell you how to start the macine. When I received both machines I had to phone them up to find out how to start them.

It's obvious now of course, but at the time this fool couldn't do it!

.

Just bought a new van the other month.

Decent manual with it but that didn't tell me how to drive it either ?

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

DerryUK

Why not enable the spell checker supplied on this forum ?

Look at the the top set of icons/buttons on the post a reply box, click on the one containing the ABC and on the drop down menu click to enable SCAYT. The SPOOL chucker will then underline all mistakes in red and with a click of the right hand mouse button suggest corrections .

Cheers

Martin

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

Thanks for that Martin, too much reliance on my Firefox checker on my part. What on earth does SCAYT mean?

<didn't tell me how to drive it either>

Well as I said John I am not the sharpest tool in my box but …

I don't want the manual to tell me how to turn or mill (that is why I buy MEW <s&gt but when I failed to start my lathe I thought I would go through the circuit diagram for clues. No help there as nothing was labelled beyond circuit IDs. It perhaps would have been more helpful to have left the circuit diagram out.

Which is what they did in the mill manual as there isn't a circuit diagram in there. To offset this though they include a picture of a different model mill for some reason.

I am perfectly happy with the lathe and mill though.

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

Posted by John Stevenson on 23/07/2012 09:07:08:

Just bought a new van the other month.

Decent manual with it but that didn't tell me how to drive it either ?

But to tell you non-standard things would be helpful, such as any interlocks etc. My car manual does tell me that to start the car I have to press & hold the clutch in before it will allow it, my previous cars did not have this feature.

Out of interest what did stop you starting the mill?

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

Having the spindle cover open a nat's whisker. It was only when going through the items with the Warco help-line and he said, 'yes but have you pushed it shut?'. I tried again, it moved a whisker and the mill sprang into life.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Springbok on 22/07/2012 19:25:35:

Great to hear

Bought my first bit of equipment from Warco over 40 years ago from Roger's father when they were in Esher at that time the telephone number was Esher and 4 digits.. never failed me now all but one of my machinery in the workshop is supplied by Warco and all give sterling service. Some at first needed a little bit of tweaking and as David (our editor) says comeing from tiawan and china the shippers are not the most gentle handlers. Also I know you Myford et all; diehards will be up in arms but but even a Chester rep once admitted to me once that the machinery was taken to bits copied and improved on. I have converted all my kit (except the metal bandsaw and that has worked perfectly and accurately for about 10 years.) to 3 phase well worth it.

So this is my defence i of Roger Warren and his company my only gripe would be that ALL our UK suppliers who import this machinery should be like Grizzly in the USof A and produce there own readable manuals. What a UK PR first that would be.

Bob T

Edited By Springbok on 22/07/2012 19:26:49

Edited By David Clark 1 on 23/07/2012 09:57:40

Bob,

I have to admit that the Chinese manuals for all machines are very much crap, to put it politely.

However, what incentive do I have to make a manual for price sensitive machines with low margins when every man and his dog sells the same machines?.

Here is a good example: Grizzlys market size for SX3 means he will import say 400pcs in one batch. He has the holding capacity and market for it. It would take all the distributors in Europe to buy this quantity in one batch, Axminster included!!.

What happens is YOU the customer wants the lowest price, in a small market. Where is the economic sense?. Most of you – especially the beginner who does not know us from Adam cannot make a decision on service, preferring to concentrate on price. Once purchased, the manual will be ripped off from Grizzly, and preparation guide from ARC. This is not a problem as far as I am concerned. This is just an observation.

Having said this, we still service and supply customers who have purchased such machines. Good manuals cost good money and time. Once published, everyone around the world tries to knick it.

We produced a fantastic manual for the KX1/KX3 CNC machines for SIEG. Over the past two years we have had to threaten three companies with legal action for trying to rip it off, and one company has been taken to court in China. ARC does not have unique machines that it can invest time and effort in trying to take legal action against competitors around the world.

If this was the case, ARC would be the first one in a queue of traders who would consider taking legal action against certain exhibition organisers for failing to observe verbal agreements. Just because we do not say anything does not mean that we do not talk to each other.

Chris Moore – Myford and his family invested a lot of time and money in their business. Look where it got them. What loyalty did they get in this time of recession?

We the importers do our own thing, and we appreciate all the business we get. Although your gripe is well placed, I hope you will understand at least my reason for failing to rise up to your expectations. Please accept my apologies.

Ketan at ARC.

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