Warco Lathe Bedway Scratches

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

Hi all, I'm looking for some advise.

I purchased a WM250V lathe from Warco back in December. It hasn't had as much use as I'd like since then, but I've used it a bit. I noticed some deep scratches on the rearmost flat bedway, and on further inspection found that the nut on the cross slide screw had split and a large chunk fallen down on onto the bed way inside the saddle. This was then occasionally getting jammed as the saddle was moved and causing deep scratches. Warco were very good and sent me a complete cross slide screw and nut, no questions asked. It's left me with some deep scratches which I had to run a stone over to take the sharp edges off, but since then I've noticed that rearmost bedway in particular also seems to have lots of very tiny little scratches or pits, it's hard to describe. I could be being pedantic and making a fuss over nothing, but I wondered could get swarf get stuck under the saddle and get slid up and down the bed, or are the tolerances too fine for swarf to get in there?

I keep the entire bed well covered in slideway oil, mainly for rust prevention, but is that the right thing to do, or should the bed ways be dry, with only the oiling points on the saddle oiled? I've noticed that swarf seems to stick to the bed when it's very oily in a way that I haven't noticed on any youtube machining videos. Could that be part of the problem, swarf sticking to the oily bed and then getting ground into the bed as it's pushed up and down by the saddle?

I'm grateful for any advice.

Thanks,

John

Edited By John McCulla on 13/03/2023 22:20:33

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Pictures would be helpful.

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

I'll see what I can do tomorrow but I'm not sure how well it would all show up.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

More oil the better and an induction hardened bed shouldn’t get damaged like that.

Tony

[samuel heywoodParticipant @samuelheywood23031]

Hello John,

I'm no expert, but no doubt one will be along shortly .

A shame about the deep scratches~ doubt they will affect lathe operation, much, if any?

I wouldn't worry about fine scratches~ bound to pick some up if you prefer to use your machine rather than polish it.

Yes swarf can get under the saddle (on a mini lathe anyway)~ usually the stuff that produces small chips like brass or cast iron.

I don't know how old you are but in my day school metalworking classes were always rounded off by a thorough bench clean down & put all tools away. (kinda ate into time though.)

This is definitely "best practice"

I must confess to being a little lazy in this regard, i can now judge when the pile of swarf in the drip tray has gotten big enough to threaten to interfere with proceeedings.

I do try to clean down asap after working with cast iron however,

You will have to weigh how much you value your time vs how much you value the lifespan of your machine in how frequently you clean down.

I'm definitely an oily bed person. Better a little too much than too little lube in this instance i reckon.

[samuel heywoodParticipant @samuelheywood23031]

Also, if you wish to minimise the swarf on your bed you could make a swarf catcher.

I think the general idea is some sheet of rubber/plastic attatched to the headstock side of the saddle.(numerous examples out there on interweb(

Always look a bit "Blue Peter" to me but does it really matter if it's effective?

I wonder when 'Amateur' & 'Amateurish' started being a derogatory term?

Think the root meaning is " for the love of"

Surely if you love what you're doing,, potentially that makes you the best sort of person to be doing it ~

n'est-ce-pas?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I much prefer to use the oilers on the carriage and pump the oil in until I see dirty oil coming out under the felts which is then wiped away along with any fine dirt it contains. I only apply a little oil to the ways that the tailstock runs on.

Should go without saying but always put a sheet of paper or a board over the bed when using any form of abrasive like emery cloth on a part in the lathe

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Much depends on where the damage is. Under the chuck and at the extreme tail-stock end it won't matter at all. Might matter under the sliding surfaces. However, these lathes have prismatic beds in which quite large areas are never touched. The non-bearing areas of the bed can be mauled horribly without affecting the lathe at all. Even moderately scratched slides are unlikely to reduce accuracy, because the bearing area is large compared with the scratch.

Scratches and swarf aren't to be encouraged because they speed up wear and tear, and that eventually causes the bed to lose accuracy. Takes a lot of work to wear out a lathe bed, but many end up scrap because wear is often concentrated close to the chuck where most work is done. How prone a lathe is to bed wear depends on how it's used, what the bed is made of, and the design of the bed. All things being equal an induction hardened prismatic bed that's kept clean will last longer than a neglected flat bed. A lathe that cuts metal all day long needs more TLC than one that does half-an-hour every alternate Sunday.

I oil my bed as an anti-rust measure, but it's more important to remove swarf and protect it from abrasives. Best done at the end of each session. All oils tend to catch swarf, so wipe all the surfaces and re-oil. Slideway oil is good because it sticks where it needs to be under the slides, but it too should be cleaned off and replaced after a few hours cutting, more often if the job is dirty.

The saddle probably has small factory fitted brushes to stop swarf getting underneath. They work moderately well, but clean underneath occasionally.

Beds can look badly knocked about but still perform well. It's deep wear that matters, not superficial damage at the surface. Many a second-hand lathe has been bought because it has a shiny flat bed, the new owner blissfully unaware the flash good looks were achieved by aggressive abrasion. Grinding out cosmetic damage like scratches and rust pits causes severe wear to the bed, and it's unlikely to be flat after Bodger Bill has 'fixed' it.

My advice, don't worry about looks, what matters is how well the machine cuts metal. If it fails to cut with reasonable success, something is wrong. Might be due to a scratched bed, far more likely it's something else like loose gibs, difficult material or operator error. Most of the trouble in my workshop is operator error.

Dave

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

The bed on these lathes is advertised and sold as 'hardened' so possibly this missed the hardening process. A discussion with Warco perhaps.

I am not sure exactly how hard it is and have no idea how you might test this. I might though have expected it to have put up a little more resistance to scratching than it has done so far.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Journeyman on 14/03/2023 11:47:01:

The bed on these lathes is advertised and sold as 'hardened' so possibly this missed the hardening process. A discussion with Warco perhaps.

I am not sure exactly how hard it is and have no idea how you might test this. I might though have expected it to have put up a little more resistance to scratching than it has done so far.

John

There's no specification, so I understand the notice to mean only that: 'this bed is somewhat harder than it would have been had we not bothered'.

I have a Warco lathe claiming an Induction hardened bed, and it's noticeably harder that my untreated Warco mill-table, which is rather soft. The lathe bed isn't hard in the sense a file bounces off!

Only way to find out what's what is with a hardness tester. Does a ding put into an unhardened part of the lathe bed go deeper than the same ding put into a red section?

I don't worry about it. Although neither are perfect, the mill and lathe both do what I want of them.

Dave

 

 

 

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 14/03/2023 13:20:30

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes only hardened a bit as it's a running surface not a cutting edge, don't have a hardness tester to know exactly how hard but easy enough to mark with a scriber

Edited By JasonB on 14/03/2023 13:41:16

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As Apprentices, we were expected to spend the last ten minutes of the day cleaning the machine.

"A clean machine is a safe machine" was drummed into us at every safety lesson.

A scratch, m,although unsightly, represents an absolutely mimute decreasevin surface narea, so operation will not be naffected.

The scratch might actually act as an oil reservoir, like the diamond honung on cylinder bores in an engine.

Far more dangerous would be a unscratched but highlyn polshed are of wear.

Howard

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

Thanks for all that info, I appreciate the responses. I do always clean down the ways after using the lathe, but unless I cleaned it constantly while working, I'd never keep swarf from sliding along the bed. I may look at one of those concertina covers to catch the worst of the swarf, but it's good to know that I'm not doing anything wrong anyway.

I've attached some photos, it's hard to see what I'm talking about, you can only just see the worst scratches in the photos.

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/03/2023 13:19:44:

Posted by Journeyman on 14/03/2023 11:47:01:

The bed on these lathes is advertised and sold as 'hardened' so possibly this missed the hardening process. A discussion with Warco perhaps.

I am not sure exactly how hard it is and have no idea how you might test this. I might though have expected it to have put up a little more resistance to scratching than it has done so far.

John

There's no specification, so I understand the notice to mean only that: 'this bed is somewhat harder than it would have been had we not bothered'.

I have a Warco lathe claiming an Induction hardened bed, and it's noticeably harder that my untreated Warco mill-table, which is rather soft. The lathe bed isn't hard in the sense a file bounces off!

Only way to find out what's what is with a hardness tester. Does a ding put into an unhardened part of the lathe bed go deeper than the same ding put into a red section?

I don't worry about it. Although neither are perfect, the mill and lathe both do what I want of them.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 14/03/2023 13:20:30

Just as a random update, I dropped the chuck key yesterday evening, and it left a small dent in the bed, so it really doesn't seem to be very hard at all. I'd be curious to check it with a hardness tester someday, although I'm sure it will be fine, I'll just have to look after it and be more careful!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For some information on Induction Hardening … it’s worth looking here: **LINK**

https://www.inductionheattreatments.com

They have small premises, near to where I previously lived, and are well respected.

I think the key takeaway is that “Induction Hardened” as a claim made without further description is almost meaningless … perhaps as informative as “Washed” might be !

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ Their smart new website appears to be still under development.

Those withe an appetite for more detail might find this worth a look:

https://thermalprocessing.com/induction-hardening-of-cast-irons/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/04/2023 07:46:22

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

I would contact Warco, the bed in my opinion has missed a process in the manufacturer. My 920 lathe is about 7 years old ,it's been well used and the bed has a polished sheen on the most used parts of the bed . I've dropped chuck keys and other stuff on the bed by mistake over the year's but no marks. I'm not sure but older Myford lathes were not hardened, but I could be wrong.

Bob

Edited By BOB BLACKSHAW on 03/04/2023 07:54:36

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Generally speaking dwarf will not cause scratches however I did get an issue on my last Myford where a very hard particle maybe from a chipped tool or even a very hard fragment of casting had worked it’s way under the tailstock. This definitely did start to cause scratches. Stripped and cleaned the tailstock base and the problem was gone. I suggest you do likewise with your saddle. The good news is although scratches like this are unsightly and irritating they will have little effect on the lathe.
regards Martin

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 03/04/2023 08:53:29:

Generally speaking dwarf will not cause scratches …

Actually, dwarves do cause scratches … but they are quite small

[ Sorry, Martin … couldn’t resist it ]

MichaelG.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

If I could turn off predictive text I would it’s more trouble than it’s worth.

regards Martin

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I believe no dwarf was injured or abused in the making of Martins post above.

Regards Nick.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 03/04/2023 09:30:16:

If I could turn off predictive text I would it’s more trouble than it’s worth.

You can't turn predictive text off because it's ready for you

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

When I bought my Warco 290V this ‘induction hardened bed’ issue did trouble me as I thought it was just shall we say, ‘not true’. Although my lathe has been OK over the last 3 years this thread reignited my curiosity and I had a further look at the bed, there is absolutely no sign of an induction hardening process being applied, no sign of heat discolouration even on the bed end where it hasn’t been ground and parts of the supposedly hardened bed are as soft as the unhardened parts. From nearly fifty years experience in engineering including performing hardening/induction hardening processes my conclusion is that my lathe bed has not been induction hardened at all. Disappointing I know but I’m not surprised at all.

Tony

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

If it is the case that the bed isn't hardened, how big a deal is that?

I could contact Warco again, but I can't see them doing anything about it tbh. When the machine arrived with me, it arrived with rust on the bed and it took quite a lot of back and forward to get some credit as a compensation.

I suspect they'll tell me its hardened and that's that. I have no way of proving it's not, and I'm not going to pay to ship it back to them for them to tell me it's as it should be.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

I have a Chester Conquest 7 x 13" mini lathe that has the "hardened bed" sticker on the end of the bed, I also have a set of Tsubosan hardenss testing files – 6 files of varying hardness that are used to test surfaces for hardness between HRC40 and HRC65. If the file is softer than the surface, it doesn't "bite" and skates off without marking the surface. Working up through the files until one does mark the surface gives an indication of how hard it is.

On one of the vee surfaces on the lathe bed shown on the sticker as hardened, the HRC40 file easily marks the surface, suggesting it is less than HRC40. Not really that hard. Whether or not it is harder than any unhardened areas I don't have the facility to check.

How big a deal is a soft bed on a light hobby lathe ? Probably not much. Do you use it hard and often enough to risk localised wear (usually near the headstock) ?

Nigel B.

Edited By mgnbuk on 03/04/2023 13:39:29

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