Warco HV6 rotary table

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

Having purchased a 6" rotary table from Chronos, I hope I am permitted to say this. The Chronos table was very poorly finished and the engraving was barely visible through the corrosion. I think this was a returned item.. The cranking handle was fixed on its spindle. It went back. Purchased a 6" one from Warco and what a difference. Beautifully finished smooth as silk good legible engraving and finish with a fully rotating handle. Backlash adjusted to virtually nil. Good job Warco!

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

Great item.

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

Forgot to say the Chronos table was sold as a Soba make. The package was all in all a very similar price for both deals.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

You lose some, you win some !

Sometimes !

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hopefully, the chart supplied with Division Plates for the RT will not contain the errors that were present on my now elderly Vertex HV6.

The RT itself, was OK, just that there were errors in the chart supplied with the Division Plates. The first of which was found the hard way after thinking that i could not count. Of course it had to be in the number of Divisions that I wanted to produce!

Having made up a spreadsheet, I found that there were eight errors or omissions in the chart. Probably the result of misreading hand written figures.

Apart from three pieces of scrap, and each waiting for Loctite to cure, eventually, a week spent to good effect

Howard

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Vertex have a good name amongst rotary tables. Please tell us why you even considered an alternative if the price difference was marginal.

Or maybe if wasn’t a Vertex – but looks very much like one.

Edited By not done it yet on 30/10/2021 17:54:27

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

Posted by not done it yet on 30/10/2021 17:37:43:

Vertex have a good name amongst rotary tables. Please tell us why you even considered an alternative if the price difference was marginal.

Or maybe if wasn’t a Vertex – but looks very much like one.

Edited By not done it yet on 30/10/2021 17:54:27

I did not need the Vertex as for my needs was a bit over kill. The one from Warco looks so close to a Vertex that I doubt there would be much advantage to spend some £100 more. I am happy now. The price difference was between the Chronos and Warco one, making the Warco a bargain

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

With a lot of internationally sourced items, lathes, drilling machines and accessories etc., I get the impression that there are some big factories somewhere each exclusively producing one item which are then sprayed different colours and branded with different names but are essentially identical. Drilling machines especially all seem to be of the same design and specification whatever the colour or brand may be. I may be quite wrong but the similarities of most of the items on the market are easy to recognise. I have also noticed this with cheap DIY power tools which all mostly seem to perform just as well as a 'branded' item. I have found this with the Clarke brand as marketed by Machine Mart, especially their 'contractor' series, which have served my purposes well enough although I know some will disagree on this point.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Chris Crew on 31/10/2021 22:32:13:

With a lot of internationally sourced items, lathes, drilling machines and accessories etc., I get the impression that there are some big factories somewhere each exclusively producing one item which are then sprayed different colours and branded with different names but are essentially identical. Drilling machines especially all seem to be of the same design and specification whatever the colour or brand may be. I may be quite wrong but the similarities of most of the items on the market are easy to recognise. I have also noticed this with cheap DIY power tools which all mostly seem to perform just as well as a 'branded' item. I have found this with the Clarke brand as marketed by Machine Mart, especially their 'contractor' series, which have served my purposes well enough although I know some will disagree on this point.

Yep. Some look similar but in different paint, but some may look identical on the outside but be completely different (quality-wise) under the surface. Hardening parts and machining hardened parts very quickly adds expense. Out-of-tolerance parts can be used for the bottom end rubbish.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ketan explains it well in his posts in this thread.

[Paul MParticipant @paulm98238]

I too purchased a Warco HV6 rotary table with dividing plates etc. As with most Chinese imports it needed a strip down and clean. Apart from the a small adjustment with one of the clamping plates it has served me well. The only annoying aspect are the tee slots not in the vertical and horizontal position when the table was set to 0 degrees.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

I am interested in all the comments and respect everybody's point of view but I look at it this way. Production of any component these days is mainly done on CNC machines as far as I am aware. Gone are the days when armies of semi-skilled men in blue overalls stood behind semi-automatic capstan lathes turning out parts that would be as good as the tool-setter's level of skill and where variations in accuracy might creep in. Although I don't work in the manufacturing engineering industry, or work at all for that matter these days, it is my understanding that everything is now designed on a computer (gone also is the traditional drawing office) and the production programs are sent directly to CNC machines which, I am told, even compensate for their own tool wear. Therefore, it seems to me that it no longer matters where the product is designed, although quality of design must play a part, or where the CNC machine is located because it will run the same program to exactly the same level of accuracy and produce exactly the same components. Production will only follow where the necessary skills and energy costs are the lowest. I would agree that the quality of the materials used may have an impact on the finished product but overall wherever the production takes place it will all be pretty much of a muchness. Hence, the availability of reasonable and cheap DIY power tools and the similarity of machine tools only differentiated by colour and brand. Am I incorrect in thinking this way?

[Bryan Cedar 1Participant @bryancedar1]

There is no doubt about the quality of the Warco HV6 rotary table. It was from a newly delivered batch and does not need dismantling to clean etc. The design is quite different from what was supposed to be a Soba brand from Chronos. which did not have a Soba marking. The Warco was superior in all respects and looks almost exactly like a Vertex even down to the black crackle finish. I rest my case. I did note that the Vertex had just three slots as opposed to four on the Warco.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

CNC will produce consistent levels of accuracy, but the finished product quality is determined by the Design, the Materials used, the of component cleamliness and ultimately, the care taken in assembly.

A well designed and precisely made machine can be wrecked by failure to clean or accurately assemble the finished the article.

Howard

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

Not every factory has quality modern machine tools, some of those far eastern factories rely on old worn out poorly maintained second hand machines, the quality of the products are reflected in this. Also some of the components are probably produced in back street workshops, like every product in this modern world the big factories sub a lot smaller parts to little producers.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Crew on 01/11/2021 10:07:24:

…

Therefore, it seems to me that it no longer matters where the product is designed, although quality of design must play a part, or where the CNC machine is located because it will run the same program to exactly the same level of accuracy and produce exactly the same components. Production will only follow where the necessary skills and energy costs are the lowest. I would agree that the quality of the materials used may have an impact on the finished product but overall wherever the production takes place it will all be pretty much of a muchness. Hence, the availability of reasonable and cheap DIY power tools and the similarity of machine tools only differentiated by colour and brand. Am I incorrect in thinking this way?

Broadly yes. And new ways are deadly to traditional and old-fashioned production methods. The chap who thinks he can work in Whitworth at a manual lathe is doomed. In manufacturing you have to keep up: it's vicious.

However, modernising production isn't complete yet. Around the world there are plenty of businesses who are behind the curve. It's still possible to find excessively cheap stuff being made by low-productivity methods. A small foundry with low labour costs and a few basic machine tools might be scratching out a living by knocking out HV6 clones. Goods made this way can vary enormously from excellent to junk, even from the same factory. But these guys are batting on a sticky wicket. An up-to-date factory that wants the business can produce the same item better and at lower cost. It may not be worth their while.

Model Engineers are at a disadvantage because the market is small and their isn't much competition driving improvement. In comparison, almost every home wants a DIY electric drill, so there's high demand for reasonable kit. Better but affordable electric drills are profitable because they sell by the million. DIY tools are excellent value because the rubbish has mostly been forced out.

Home workshop gear sells in much smaller quantities, and the problem is compounded by Model Engineer's being notoriously tight. If we all tripled our spending, I'm sure hobby makers would offer better kit. Doubt it will happen though; I can only think of one hobbyist coughing up serious money for a new industrial grade machine, and there's a lot of dodgy cheapo stuff bought off the web by optimists!

I'm surprised at how good hobby tools are for the money. Had a few lemons, but generally my mid-range purchases have done what's needed of them. I think it's because much of it is made economically by modern methods, not by rice-farmers in a shed!

Dave

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer 01/11/2021 11:26:17

not by rice-farmers in a shed!
———————————————
Don't appear to even have a shed ,well not in the first part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6QmvOU_syM

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Chris, did you miss the post a week or two back showing crankshaft production?

As with most things the design is to a budget so what get sent to the CNC is determined by the design, higher tolerance will take longer and cost more so the cheaper item may not have such high tolerances. Could also be decided at the design stage that a machined finish will get it within budget rather than the better ground finish. Then there are material choices and any treatment to those materials.

As mentioned above a lot of old first generation CNC machines may have been exported and these may be what is being used to build the lower budget products. Top of the range CNC gets used when the customer is willing to pay the top range price for their rotary table that is why some 6" ones cost a couple of thousand pounds compared to £150-200 for the run of the mill hobby ones.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bryan Cedar 1 on 01/11/2021 10:21:44:

[…]

I did note that the Vertex had just three slots as opposed to four on the Warco.

.

Just as an aside … When Vertex supplied HV6 rotary tables to Myford, at Beeston [which were then sold as Myford parts] they had four slots.

MichaelG.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Some informative replies to the points I raised, so thanks to you all for adding to my education. But just before I let this thread go, please let me say that I bought a 6" British made Sharp rotary table from Mill Hill Supplies many years ago. It has never been used because shortly afterwards I acquired what immediately looked to be a far superior Vertex model for a very reasonable price at an exhibition trader's stand and this was at a time when the air was full of derogatory comments about the far-eastern products which were coming on to the market. I assumed even then that this was because the much higher quality 'Chinese' product had been made using modern production methods designed to supply the world market whilst at the time I think a lot of people would have said that British made Sharp was better because it had been made using traditional skills by a small engineering company in the north of England. I apologise if this comment disappoints those who still cling the rose-tinted view that British was best.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

CC, the bottom line is the far eastern stuff is made to a price point not a quality point so it varies like hell & a CNC machine can produce just as many bad parts as a manual one but it will do it a lot quicker. I'm also pretty sure quality control is absent in a good many Chines/Indian factories.

Tony

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

JohnP's video is very informative. The first thing I noted was the scrap feedstock which was being melted down, an assortment of aluminium parts which were variously die cast and sand cast items. So the melts will vary continually depending on what is fed into the furnace. Pistons will be high silicon content with a smidgen of copper, die cast motor endplates will have a high zinc content, etc – nowhere was there a strontium flux used to degas the melt, in fact no flux was added (I would expect a Borax powder at some point ) that I could see. The only thing I saw was a bag of (possibly talcum powder ) some 'dust' added to the mould as a release agent. The chiselling of the semi solidified material was interesting as a crude form of 'squeeze' casting – which imparts a grain modification similar to forging.

As for Chris Crew's comments about the CNC machinery used and the design methodology being a great leveller in the production of Third world components, this is both naivety and ample evidence that Chris certainly has little to no knowledge of the importance of materials and processes in an industrial context. Due to the parsimonious nature of business and especially manufacturing in China there is a compelling reason to 'skimp' on both material and process to deliver goods at the lowest possible cost. This even reaches into the home market place and is not just a 'rip off' for Johnny Foreigner. At a major Chinese State jointly owned Motor manufacturer we had to continually fight against poor quality materials and skimped processes – Cylinder blocks that had more holes than Gruyere cheese, because the casting sand was not damp but wet! A serious problem due to the high humidity in China for at least 8 months of the year. Valves that in prototype form were 21/4N steel came in at production level as 10/2N (because it was much cheaper than 21/4N ) and until we tracked the cause down resulted in engine failures at an unprecedented level, the upshot of this was the MD of the suppliers got a 12 year penal sentence! Processes that were agreed at prototype level (heat treatments, quenching, surface finishes, and anti corrosion processes ) were found to be either drastically modified later for production or completely ignored. As I have stated before the problem with the Chinese mentality is that if a thing is poor quality or worse still fails it is not the products fault but due to the 'bad karma' of the person that bought it. I experienced this when I bought an electric kettle from Carrefour in Shanghai, within a week it broke so took it back, they were flabbergasted to think that I had the gall to return a failed item as it reflected on what a bad person I was!!!

Meanwhile in the Westernised Far East – Japan, Korea, and certainly Taiwan – know that the customer is paramount and offer good quality and products which please. I would also add that Vietnam is a growing industrial strength that has / is following the example of the later mentioned countries, despite being a totalitarian Communist regime it has seen the error of the Chinese way. They also have no love of the Chinese after the Sino-Viet war of 1974 when they inflicted the bloodiest of noses on the invading Chinese.

Martin

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Martin, to be honest you wrote the excellent reply I couldn't face writing but CC's posts are definitely written from blissful ignorance.

Tony

[ZanParticipant @zan]

Interesting video John there was a similar one about crankshafts not long ago . I suspect some of our cheaper machine components are made in the same way!

[Oily RagParticipant @oilyrag]

Tony,

Unless an exporter has 'on the spot' representatives monitoring the product material and processes on a daily routine the supplier will inevitably backslide to maximise their profit. The Chinese mentality is there is only one winner in a business deal and they are determined that it will be them and not the exporter / customer. They have no concept of 'win/win' in a deal only that which is 'win / lose' and it is not going to be they who lose!

This goes for India as well, Rolls Royce have a facility in Tamil Nadu which manufactures gears (Ashanti Gears Ltd,. ) for their engines. They have 12 inspectors on site full time to ensure quality and adherence to specifications. Boeing have a carbon fibre associate facility in Mumbai (Madras) which also has on site Boeing personal to ensure the products are to specification. The earlier discussion in another thread on Holbrook 10B lathes which were made in India at the Alfred Herbert associate factory had UK staff seconded on a three year rotation to oversee the quality and processes were adhered to. I doubt that any of the ME suppliers in the UK have directly based employees at overseas factories as it would increase their overheads and nullify their cost advantages, this makes the 'quality' aspect of the product subject to the whims of the overseas producers and their basic honesty. Admittedly, there seems to be a willingness by the UK based suppliers to take back poor product and this is surely a reflection on their inability to control what comes out of the factories, but reflects the need to protect a reputation. Good 'on them' for at least doing that – woe betide anyone who buys junk off Alibaba or Ebay!

Martin

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