Voip

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I’m hoping one of you clever chaps can advise. I’m thinking of swapping my ISP to one who provides FTTP. This means I’ll have to go to VOIP (I think that is inevitable in the near future whatever). I currently have 2 phone handsets (upstairs and down), but the new ISP man seems to think that to get that I need 2 line rentals. Is this right? Can’t I just connect a second handset via WiFi?

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

God I hope you are wrong I have 5 handsets!!!!!!

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

I recently went FTTP, changing from Plusnet to Zen in the process. My old BT copper landline phone base station plugs straight into the Zen router with a total of 3 cordless handsets. Works fine. Payment for calls is as an “extra” to the basic internet monthly cost.

The reason for changing ISP was that Plusnet did not offer retention of the old geographic landline number with FTTP.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I thought that these days, you have a single phone connection to the router and that connection is to a base station for DECT (Digital Enhanced Cordless Telecommunications) telephones. I don’t know what the limit is for a base station but I run 3 portable phones. The difficulty comes if you want a FAX machine as these can’t be connected to a DECT base station.

Bob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Another very satisfied Zen customer, for 2 years now:

… a forum search should find some posts.

VoIP telephony is provided for an additional £6 per month, and my geographical landline number was transferred from East Cheshire to North Wales.

My only disappointment so far, is that the Merlin@home pacemaker monitor cannot upload data to Wythenshawe Hospital [apparently because the ‘dialect’ of CoDec does not match]

MichaelG.

[Speedy Builder5]

On Speedy Builder5 Said:

I thought that these days, you have a single phone connection to the router and that connection is to a base station for DECT (Digital Enhanced Cordless Telecommunications) telephones. I don’t know what the limit is for a base station but I run 3 portable phones.

Bob

I have the same. The only connection for the other two handsets is for charging.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I checked the Zen website. The best they can offer is 32Mb, whereas the other lot ClearComs are offering a choice of 500Mb or 1 Gb. My current ISP (virgin) comes under ground. They have been stringing cable (fibre?) up poles in the last few weeks. Apart from ClearComs no-one else seems to be offering FTTP to my address. ClearComs are being very slow at quoting. I’m beginning to think they are stringing me along until FTTP is available.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I checked Open Reach, they say they are working on it.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In the old copper lines you can connect several phones in your house to sockets wired into the system. (NOT talking about DECT here). One of the sockets is the master and causes its phone to ring. The other sockets are wired slightly differently so their phones don’t ring. Each phone has a “REN” number depending on its age which designates how much it loads the system. You are only allowed a certain number of REN units total or things stop working.
DECT base stations just look like a single phone to the system and how many handsets it will handle depends on the maker.

The new digital interfaces provide you with one phone socket which is enough for most people but if you have a multi-socket installation that would have to be wired into the new interface. That should be done by the tech who installs the new interface.
If you are getting ‘switched over’ by eg Virgin or BT activating the socket on your modem and you have multiple phones (NOT just DECT handsets) you need to talk to them about having a tech wire it in. The VM modems can handle multiple phones – I know because I wrote the specification for the first modems with this socket about 8 years ago.

You DO NOT have to have more than one account / rental unless you have more than one phone number which some people do for a home business.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

When my BT line came up for renewal last year (landline and broadband) it was suggested I move to digital for the landline.  I had 5 dect handsets at that point in time.  With the digital service I have a single handset.  BUT you can have all calls routed to your mobile phone, so you can answer wherever you have your mobile.  If you are the other side of the world you can still pick up your landline calls.  You can also make calls from your mobile as if you had made them from your landline phone.

I am still on copper cable from the cab, have the standard BT box but use my own router into which the BT phone is plugged.

All works ok.

Colin

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

We have been using Zen for the last 8 years or so, since Nildram was bought out (and likewise Demon before that). I mean to go full fibre sometime soonish, and we will most likely ditch the landline number and handsets, and just use mobiles. I cannot remember when either of us last phoned out on the landline, and I have stopped giving out the number, so I am just wasting money really.

Also, the mobile works much better for me, as it Bluetooth’s to my hearing aids.

A couple of weeks ago a new fibre was blown through past us for Virgin, so that may offer more choice, or confusion.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

As I understand things there are two ways to connect to a VOIP phone system.

The more usual way is to connect an ATA (Analog telephone adapter) to the broadband connection, and plug a conventional analogue phone into the ATA. The ATA registers with the VOIP providers servers, and converts the analogue voice signals to and from the digital data stream. The ATA can be a stand alone box, or built into the broadband router.

If the analogue phone connected to the ATA is a DECT base station, then you can hang as many DECT handsets from it as the manufacturer allows ( usually 4, 5 or 6 ) . If you want hardwired extensions it is possible to wire them in a daisy chain from the ATA, just as they were wired to the old master socket, but you need to be careful about the total load (REN  number) that the ATA will support.

The alternative approach is for the phone handset to register directly with the VOIP provider’s servers, and do the analogue to digital conversion in the handset. This is what “softphone” apps on desktops or smartphones do. there are also VOIP specific handsets that connect directly to the broadband network (wired or WiFi). Most VOIP providers will let you register several devices to the same account, and if you do so, then all the phones will ring on an incoming call. Some providers will let you make multiple outgoing calls simultaneously on a single account.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Please see my posts under ‘A new variation on an old scam’ if you want to know how to connect your existing domestic copper network to your new fibre router. I am not going to type it all out again here. It’s easy, takes a mentally retarded chimpanzee about five minutes to connect two wires and you can use all your old phones as long as they have tone dialling and you have requested to keep your land-line number with your new full fibre ISP.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As a BT Customer, I’ve dug into what BT will provide when I’m converted.   Couldn’t find much written technical detail, but the video in the Home Customers section of this Digital Voice webpage is reassuring.

Briefly, they provide a black-box with phone socket on the back:

• Into which the existing phone will plug with a 99% probability of just working.   (I guess they don’t guarantee 100%, because a minority of customers will be doing something non-standard!)
• A Digital Voice Adapter supports any additional wired phones in the house. It’s an analogue to DECT converter.   (I doubt the adaptors will be supplied free, but they sell online for about £20 each, one per phone.)
• Phone number does not change
• Battery backup available, I expect at extra cost
• Should be compatible with modern care alarm systems, but check with provider
• Nothing said about fibre replacing copper into the home.   I believe Smart Hub2 supports Fibre and ADSL, so I may well be stuck with copper!

In my case, I have:

• A two handset wireless answer-phone base-station.  This should just plug in and work, because as far as the blackbox is concerned, the base-station is one phone.
• An extension line to the kitchen, which connects to a normally unplugged basic handset.  This is my power-cut emergency phone.  Not sure what to do about power-cuts: I don’t have a mobile phone.  Might have to cough up for battery backup.

Although other providers are likely to provide similar this is not guaranteed!  Do your own research!

More gotchas in Digital Voice than I care for.   A SmartHub2 contains a DECT base-station, which stores favourite numbers etc.  This information is lost whenever the SmartHub is re-set.   Possible to store and recover the information with a PC, a right pain compared with existing base-stations, which have no-fuss battery backup.

Dave

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

“Briefly, they provide a black-box with phone socket on the back:”

If you mean by ‘black box’ a fibre router, then yes this what the fibre ISP will supply but it will not have a ‘phone socket’ on the back if you mean by this the ‘traditional’ BT type socket. It will have an analogue RJ11 socket which will accept an RJ11 to BT socket adapter and you can plug a tone dialling analogue phone into this and get dial tone, provided you have opted to have a ‘land-line’ service with your ISP. But the chances are, especially with an older model of phone, that it will not ring if you receive a call. This is because older phones need the capacitor that is contained in a BT master socket in order to filter off the AC ringing current.

You have to cut the BT socket off the adapter and connect the two central conductors of the ribbon cable (it’s usually a ribbon cable on the adapter) to the IDC (insulation displacement connector) terminals 2 & 5 of the BT master socket. Your phone should now ring. If you are changing your ISP at the same time as having a fibre connection, and wish to retain your landline service and number, this will need to be ‘ported’ over to your new ISP provider just like if you changed your mobile phone provider and kept your original mobile number. The is likely to be a small charge to pay for this operation.

If you have a domestic copper network which is usually a chain of sockets connected in series around the house using terminals 2,3, & 5 from the master to extension sockets, then all you have to do is replace the two old incoming copper landline wires (usually orange and white, but could be black and green) in the back of the master socket with the two central conductors from your RJ11 adapter. Your old copper domestic network and all your existing analogue phones, providing they are tone dialling, will function exactly as they did before subject to REN limitations.

It’s so easy to do, it’s about a 5 minute job in total. You do not need to go to the expense of buying an ATA, a new VOIP phone or re-cabling your home network for ethernet. It’s all built into your new fibre router but it only has one input via the RJ11 socket, hence use your old copper network as described above.

[David AmbroseParticipant @davidambrose86182]

I’m still on copper, but my BT smarthub 2 has a traditional BT phone socket on the back.

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

“Briefly, they provide a black-box with phone socket on the back:”

If you mean by ‘black box’ a fibre router, then yes this what the fibre ISP will supply but it will not have a ‘phone socket’ on the back if you mean by this the ‘traditional’ BT type socket. It will have an analogue RJ11 socket which will accept an RJ11 to BT socket adapter and you can plug a tone dialling analogue phone into this and get dial tone, provided you have opted to have a ‘land-line’ service with your ISP. But the chances are, especially with an older model of phone, that it will not ring if you receive a call. This is because older phones need the capacitor that is contained in a BT master socket in order to filter off the AC ringing current.

…

I said black-box rather that get into details that we hope don’t matter.  Is it a router, or a gateway?  And although BT’s offering calls itself a hub, it actually contains a switch.  And a DECT module.   Not limited to a fibre input – does copper and ethernet as well.

What documentation there is describes the Green phone socket on the back of a SmartHub2 as an FSX port – it connects an analogue phone to the DECT module inside,  and DECT connects to the Digital Voice service when it’s activated.

I hope my phone will plug straight in to the SmartHub without needing an adaptor.   This video shows a chap doing it.

https://youtu.be/zG8TSpYCsKk

There will be fireworks if lots of BT customers find getting their phone to ring is as complicated as Chris describes!   Probably depends on the age of the customers equipment – mine is all 21st century!

I’ll report back when the switchover happens – no date yet.

Dave

 

 

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

“There will be fireworks if lots of BT customers find getting their phone to ring is as complicated as Chris describes!”

With the greatest respect, it is not complicated, a mentally retarded chimpanzee could do it in about five minutes flat! It means you can you use all your existing household sockets and phones, save on buying new phones and if you have an analogue compatible DECT base station already plugged into your BT socket it will still function exactly as it has been doing and serve all the remote handsets associated with it. Again, with the greatest respect, it seems that it is you who is trying to complicate the issue. BTW, RJ11 adapters are available on eBay for £2.57 including postage. Would you rather pay that or buy a new VOIP phone?

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

“I’m still on copper, but my BT smarthub 2 has a traditional BT phone socket on the back.”

If, and when, you are on BT fibre and you can get dial tone by plugging an analogue phone directly into the rear of the BT router, you are on a winner. Can’t be sure but I think it is also the two central conductors of the BT plug that will be the analogue line pair, bit it’s easy enough to prove once you have cut one end off a BT lead. Just twist the pair together and call your number and you should get engaged tone if you have the correct pair. Then simply connect this pair into the back of your BT master socket on terminals 2 & 5 where the old analogue line is now.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Our Virgimedia Router has a phone socket on the back but when I looked into it VoIP was not available in my area. Someone on the Virginmedia forum was also quick to point out that even in areas where it is available it’s not true VoIP, and won’t be until 2025. They didn’t elaborate on the difference.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Here’s some photo’s to show you what I mean. The first shows the fibre router which I have in my loft to keep it out the way (propped up on the old BT router’s wall wart) showing the RJ11 lead that I used. It wasn’t long enough to reach the old BT master socket so I extended it with a length of old two-wire jumper that I happened to have and you see the connection. The second photo shows the the other end of the jumper going into the back of the BT master socket from where the domestic copper network begins and loops round sockets in all the bedrooms and hall etc. You can see the old copper land-line cable sticking up at the side of it disconnected. The third photo shows an old tone dialling analogue phone that I used for proving dial tone and a test call which I left in the loft simply because I couldn’t be bothered to take it back down to the shed.

[Chris Crew]

On Chris Crew Said:

“There will be fireworks if lots of BT customers find getting their phone to ring is as complicated as Chris describes!”

With the greatest respect, it is not complicated, a mentally retarded chimpanzee could do it in about five minutes flat!

Really?  All the mentally retarded chimp has to do is ‘cut the BT socket off the adapter and connect the two central conductors of the ribbon cable (it’s usually a ribbon cable on the adapter) to the IDC (insulation displacement connector) terminals 2 & 5 of the BT master socket.‘   Presumably the chimp owns a pair of wire cutters, knows what a BT Master Socket is, and can identify numbered terminals!

Few households would be able or willing to follow Chris’s advice.  Many full function humans don’t understand electrickery or have the necessary tools needed to follow his instructions!  But I don’t believe cutting wires is necessary, provided the customer owns a modern phone.   BT’s explanation and the phone shown being plugged straight into a BT SmartHub2 in the video I linked, both suggest the old phone is just plugged.   Mostly; there are bound to be exceptions!

Other ISPs may be different.   I’m explaining what BT/EE are doing.

Dave

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

Our Virgimedia Router has a phone socket on the back but when I looked into it VoIP was not available in my area. Someone on the Virginmedia forum was also quick to point out that even in areas where it is available it’s not true VoIP, and won’t be until 2025. They didn’t elaborate on the difference.

This is why it’s dangerous to generalise on the web!    I have no idea what the capabilities of a VirginMedia Router are, and can’t look it up because the model isn’t identified.

VirginMedia services are not the same as BT or other ISP services, so when and how VOIP is made available, and in what form are likely to differ.  In addition, we are on the receiving end of a phased roll-out, where stuff might appear, or not, at different times.   Uncertainty rules!

My guess is that Vic’s VirginMedia Router is VOIP ready in some way, but have no idea what exactly the capability might be.  It won’t do anything until VOIP is switched on by VirginMedia.

I believe BTs are rolling out full VOIP to which their SmartHub2 connects, but for full VOIP to work the customer has to buy a VOIP handset.  And maybe pay more for the full VOIP service.   Not many will want to do that, so the hub also has a built-in converter allowing an old phone to connect via Internet Protocol rather than plain copper.  Plugging in an existing phone simplifies the switch over and keeps costs down.  It doesn’t magically turn an analogue phone into a feature packed VOIP phone.

Though GPO POTS was warty, expensive, and far from future proof, everything was done by a single provider, nice and simple for the customer. Now we have competition between multiple different providers, each doing their own thing, and the customer has to engage his poor old brain and understand what his particular provider is offering.   One day I expect Vic will get an email from Virgin explaining what they’re going to do about his analogue phone.   Until then I wouldn’t worry about it.

Dave

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Right, after this I am going to shut up. I have done my level best to explain how to use existing analogue phones and a domestic copper network with a new full fibre router. I do not believe that anybody here, of what ever level of skill they may have, cannot connect two wires together and save themselves money by not having to buy new VOIP phones and whatever else they might be told they may need.  But if they choose to ignore the information I have given,  so be it. Over and out!

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Chris – I think that you might be over-estimating the confidence and/or competence of the average member of the public! Personally, I am grateful to you for explaining how to connect existing home extension wiring to a FTTP router, for the day when it arrives in my small village – although I’m pretty happy with my current FTTC setup. I’m not familiar with the details of BT wiring, why there are sometimes two and sometimes three wires used and so on, but I reckon I could follow your guide easily enough.

But given the level of electrical competence and lack of understanding of such technology that is seen even in this forum – not a criticism as not everyone comes from a sufficiently technical background – things like positively identifying a master socket, and especially pushing wires into IDC blades or whatever, is a step beyond them. Personally, I wouldn’t trust the average man in the street to safely wire a mains plug and those have been around for longer than I have!

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