Vintage voltage

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

I have watch a couple of the vintage voltage TV programmes.
This got me thinking, with the push towards electric vehicles will there be a need for conversions as demand outstrips supply in the future.
To some extent this will depend upon what happens to the price of existing fuels and possibly if hydrogen cars become a possibility.

There are many that run cars on a shoestring and rely on a supply of old bangers.
It would seem to me that conversions of popular makes could be done on a production line. This would seem to be a green solution if it can be done for a realistic price. It might need some government intervention. My suspicion is that the car industry won't want this to happen. However, not doing anything could cause a public outcry when they realise that they can't afford to run a car any longer. Another big issue will be how the government replace the lost fuel taxes.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

The general need for electrical convertions for IC engine cars.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I have heard that Ford are to offer conv kits for smaller cas In their range.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

No need to worry. Fossil cars will be around for 12+ years after any new ones are green and by then there will be EV bangers about with folk rebuilding battery packs. And gov has never had a problem inventing new taxes.

I was in Prague shortly after the velvet revolution. Under soviet power there had been lost of shortages such that folk were disassembling lead acid batteries and rebuilding dud cells. Ingenuity. Just look at how they managed keeping bangers running in Cuba..

I recently found a local garage that claims they will continue to stock E5 indefinitely for the number of period vehicles out here in the sticks so my '93 Nissan won't need expensive stuff like Aspen fuel.

pgk

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

I cant imagine that it would be ever economically viable to do this

stripping out the drive chain fuel system engine etc then installing huge battery’s and drive motors on a even 4-5 yr old car would be a non starter done commercially

so many cars are scrapped by the time they reach 10 years old as it is ..theres hardly any old cars running around as daily drivers.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Regarding disassembling lead acid batteries and rebuilding dud cells, when I was in the army in 1953 we had a plant in Egypt doing just that, we made distilled water and diluted Vitriol acid for the batteries, so nothing new. For ingenuity and keeping banger going, travel round the Middle East and India, where you lorry drivers with G/boxes apart on the road side, tyres with patches on the outside, remarkable people, but needs must. Forgot, straight eight engines, running on four cylinders with length of copper wire to the spark plugs. Amazing, are we about to copy them, I don't think so, we have lost that what it takes, to quick to get on the phone . John

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, it's not so much that fuel for old cars won't be available in 10 or so years, but if the uptake of electric cars gets up to 75+% by then, the price of petrol / diesel may sky rocket and maybe those on lower earnings won't be able to run an old car.

Regards Nick.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The relative cost, currently, to replace the battery in a small electric vehicle is regarded as uneconomic (battery swsp costs close to buying another car)? In ten years time, replacement batteries will be a thriving market.

Or there will be a lot of current ‘top-end’ BEVs which would otherwise be scrapped simply because of a battery failure. That will simply just not happen. There are now companies who carry out this type of repair, but not many – yet.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Read an article, can’t remember where it was, that an enterprising individual was converting conventional cars to EV’s but each conversion took him a very long time and it was definitely not a cost effective exercise because major engineering involved. My take on EVs is that they will still be scrapped at the end of a short life just like conventional cars today, hopefully they will all be designed so that they are 100% recyclable. Dave W

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Apart from the cost of the batteries it makes you wonder why EV cars are so expensive. No engine, no clutch, no fuel tank, no conventional gearbox, no radiator etc. All these replaced by an electric motor and it's electronics.

So deducting the cost of all those items should cover a good part of the battery cost to balance out the cost

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Vic, i also assume that electric cars ought to be cheaper. Love seeing an ancient electric car when ever I go to Driffield Steam Rally. It looks really simple although range and speed are very limited, but if it had been developed rather than IC engines?
As I have got older I get more annoyed that things are thrown away rather than repaired or reused. For example, i still use a 50 year old, ex tumble dryer electric motor in my workshop. drives a picador shaft. Initially it was my grinder but more lately used for buffing, wire brushing. I am surprised that it has lasted this long due to its dusty environment. I guess most of its stablemates ended up in landfill.

From what I have seen on" vintage voltage" the gearbox is retained, but sometimes upgraded. Suspension gets upgraded to cope with the extra weight. Most upgrades seem expensive, but the vintage cars get many other upgrades to improve them. The issue is often finding space for the batteries. The biggest issue seems to be the dangerous current involved, and final fine tuning.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by vic newey on 20/11/2021 11:07:11:

Apart from the cost of the batteries it makes you wonder why EV cars are so expensive. No engine, no clutch, no fuel tank, no conventional gearbox, no radiator etc. All these replaced by an electric motor and it's electronics.

So deducting the cost of all those items should cover a good part of the battery cost to balance out the cost

It's a new market. Initial production volumes are low and there is the design cost to claw back. The first customers will be the ones with more available cash and the willingness to spend it, so the market will stand higher pricing. On the back of all this, volumes will increase as charging networks and confidence grows and the costs will come down. You should wait maybe 25 years untill you start to compare prices.

regards Martin

[peak4Participant @peak4]

There's several firms about who specialise in converting classic cars to electric.
This is one at random
https://www.electrogenic.co.uk/

Someone I know looked at the prices for getting her Marlin Berlinetta kit car converted as she lives in London.
Same sort of car as my avatar; from what I recall it was north of £30K

If you have a Facebook account, this is the thread.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/244465822252180/posts/4142590055773051

Bill

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Interesting question! I'm sure something could be done, but not that it would be worth doing. The layout of a modern electric car is considerably different from an IC engined vehicle, and many components just aren't needed.

Electric cars resemble a skateboard when the body is removed. Front and rear wheels are connected by a long, wide, thin underbody on top of which sit the driver and passengers. The underbody contains a massive battery. All four wheels have an electric motor. No power is used when the vehicle is stopped, the battery is recharged during braking, acceleration is better than IC, and the engine management unit can maximise power transfer and road-holding by measuring what all the wheels are doing relative to the road.

Not much like an IC car where a single motor is connected mechanically to four wheels via a complicated clutch, gear-box, driveshafts, differentials and universal joints. Most of that stuff is just excess weight in an electric car, as are the radiator, pumps and cooling fan.

I think the architecture of an IC car would limit a simple conversion to replacing the IC engine with a relatively small battery and a single big electric motor driving the wheels through the old gubbins. Might not be worth doing because energy wasted in the mechanical drive train coupled with a limited battery would make the vehicle short range only. The advantages of having fully independent electric four wheel drive would be lost too.

My feeling is the owner would end up with a somewhat inefficient short-range low-performance vehicle. However, such might suit people like me very well. Now I'm retired my car is mostly used for shopping and visiting nearby relatives. I rarely travel more than 80 miles a day and am surrounded by 20mph speed limits and fuel wasting traffic jams. Plus, I don't have the urge to own a boy-racer with vanity plates or have a need to go off-road in a blizzard with a ton of cattle feed. Driving one would barely inconvenience me at all. Wouldn't do for everyone though!

Dave

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Keith, I have a sawbench, powered by a 1/2 hp secondhand motor, operating for the last 50 years, so I,m with you there !

[Rob McSweeneyParticipant @robmcsweeney81205]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 19/11/2021 19:24:1

so many cars are scrapped by the time they reach 10 years old as it is ..theres hardly any old cars running around as daily drivers.

You must live in a particularly affluent part of the country then, where l live l see plenty of 20 year old, and older, cars being used on a daily basis.

[Tim HammondParticipant @timhammond72264]

Silly Old Duffer said, "All four wheels have an electric motor," My Nissan LEAF has just one motor driving the front wheels via reduction gear and differential assemblies and thence through drive shafts, just like a conventional F.W.D. I.C.E. vehicle. The majority of B.E.V.'s conform to this configuration.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Tim Hammond on 20/11/2021 17:29:28:

Silly Old Duffer said, "All four wheels have an electric motor," My Nissan LEAF has just one motor driving the front wheels via reduction gear and differential assemblies and thence through drive shafts, just like a conventional F.W.D. I.C.E. vehicle. The majority of B.E.V.'s conform to this configuration.

Tut, wrong again! Thanks for the correction Tim. I read the first page of a magazine article on car futures whilst waiting for a take-away. I bet there was more over the page…

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Twenty, thirty, forty grand for a new car, including about 9 grand in taxes. Nope. Normally only use my ageing (petrol engined) Focus to collect heavy/bulky foods from edge of town supermarket, club meetings, not much else. Town centre traffic ques, one ways, "Bus Gates" in Brighton =£60fine, horrendous parking costs. Why bother when I can flash my bus pass and the driver takes all the risks of loosing his license if he drives badly. When car gives up, I'll probably use old codgers bus pass and train discount card. Expensive electric cars not a viable option for me or half the population. Even paying full wack for all public transport would be cheaper for the majority. Depends upon distances and reasons for travel, I suppose. Pay per mile for cars etc is on its way so Government will be collecting their previously normal volume of taxation. I live in a fairly long road of terrace houses, no charging points. Parallel road has one, often blocked by an i.c. engined car. Infrastructure???

Edited By DMB on 20/11/2021 21:41:09

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by DMB on 20/11/2021 21:38:52:

…. I live in a fairly long road of terrace houses, no charging points. Parallel road has one, often blocked by an i.c. engined car. Infrastructure???

…

Wouldn't worry too much about that, time will fix it. When Mrs Benz took that famous first drive in 1888 she had to stop at a chemist and refuel with a Cleaning Fluid. No petrol stations anywhere in the world and most roads were unmetalled…

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Well if the media are to be believed many are voting with their wallets and buying second hand cars now, as reportedly prices are going up. Is this a reaction to the deadline for new fossil fuel cars in 9 years time?

My poor old Discovery with the towing capacity I need is getting poorly, not sure what to do, certainly can't afford a new electric even if there were somewhere to charge it so not sure which way to jump!

Paul.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Paul ! Dump the disco,get a 2a or s3, drop a perkins 203 in it and it will burn almost anything and pul a house down ! and parts will be available and fairly cheap ! Noel.

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

I think the second hand car market has improved more due to the possibility of increases in interest rates. Many younger folk with mortgages must be tightening their purse strings when considering how much a tiny increase in rate would affect the horrendous levels of payments they must be saddled with.

That was certinly the opinion of a long standing used car dealer I heard on Radio 4 the other day also.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I think the 2nd hand car market is thriving because the modern offering gives you such good value for money

The next 10 years really looks like the last-chance-saloon for any real freedom in our lifetimes

Modern 3yr+ diesels for example are fabulous. 700 miles on a tank, not a puff of anything on a cold morning. cruise control bla bla

They finally get the technology really good, like with the last CRT tellys, and then abandon them for planet saving lesser options

I see a thriving market in stranded electric vehicles ahead, their limited ability in a busy daily schedule makes it inevitable

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 19/11/2021 19:24:14:

I cant imagine that it would be ever economically viable to do this

stripping out the drive chain fuel system engine etc then installing huge battery’s and drive motors on a even 4-5 yr old car would be a non starter done commercially

so many cars are scrapped by the time they reach 10 years old as it is ..theres hardly any old cars running around as daily drivers.

Really? vintage someone's doing OK.

Whilst there are not many last century cars left in daily use there are plenty of 2005 cars trundling around the cities of the UK on the work or shopping cart run.

[Author]

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