Victoria V2

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

Hi folks, thought id start a thread here as my mill is starting to see more use. my main hobby is tinkering with cars and bikes, which handilly coincides with the engineering degree im doing at uni. problem is, while the uni does give us access to a few decent cad programs, were not able to use any of the machines. so as the number of little things that got dropped off at machine shops and designs sent off to get milled out started to build up, i chanced across a very very cheap Victoria V2 mill.

the good news was that it was 240v and came with a bunch of tooling. however there is of course a reason for the price. the mill had a bit of damage, one of the table end plates is cracked in two, and the "drive box" that connects the table to the Y axis leadscrew is also cracked in half. along with a couple of little missing bits. its also wired through a simple on off switch, so theres only one direction for the motor.

the two cracks are jury rigged for now with some threaded rod and weld stitching across the cracks, and a couple of plates bolted over to hold together. its not ideal in terms of backlash ( ie, a lot of it ) but ive got a DRO on there to work around that till i can find anyone with one for scrap to pinch the bits off of.

ive made a few bits and bobs with it so far, mostly making car bits flat, little slots and modifications. and a tool holder for a friends lathe. and a couple of little things just for practice as when it comes to this stuff i am a complete amateur

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

[Anonymous]

Wow, that's a man size mill! Properly set up it should be able to shift some metal. It looks like the head swivels, although I can't see a degrees scale on it? Seems to be a good range of tooling too. The machine vice looks more like a shaper vice, but will do fine on the mill as well. The universal Elliott dviding head has considerable value, especially with the low lead drive shaft. Did it come with the all important tailstock, banjo and the change gears? The dividing is sitting on what looks like a rotary table?

Backlash isn't the problem it purports to be; there are workarounds. With a DRO it simply isn't a problem. My secondhand industrial machine tools have significant backlash, up to millimetre or so, but it simply isn't an issue.

Which university are you attending? Presumably your course is biased to mechanical engineering?

Andrew

[John ATTLEEParticipant @johnattlee20632]

It looks just a little bit later than mine which is a U2. Your vertical head looks much more robust than mine. What does the hand wheel on the vertical head do?

If you put a DRO on it, you will massively increase its productivity and you will find that you use the machine more. Best to have it on all three axes.

John

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi TJ Scott, a little info about your machine if you don't already have it.

Regards Nick.

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

im at Glasgow Caledonian University doing Computer aided mechanical engineering. which comes in handy to a degree with this kind of stuff.

Its definitely a big heavy machine, it was a fun job getting up the ramp into the garage, the head does swivel with degree markings up to 30 or 40 degrees ( i cant remember exactly) on the other side. i have a few other tools like a good condition set of ER collets that see the most use and a boring head. the dividing head i picked up a couple of weeks ago with the rotary table ( which was the main thing i was after), i dont have the banjo or tailstock sadly.

the rotary table is from sometime around the mid thirties by the George Gorton machine company in the US and still turns nice and smooth, although i do need to pick up a handwheel to fit it at some point. the vice came with the machine and is a Leon Hure ( of huron fame) swivel vice, im not actually sure when it was made other than being quite old and very heavy.

ive already got a DRO set up ( on of my first jobs on it ) to get around the backlash but the drive box is split in two, so while its still able to move the table when bolted back together, i am without powerfeeds until its sorted. although it is only on two axes ( however the Z axis has very little backlash and i can live with accounting for that).

the hand wheel on the front of the head is a quill feed, and has 3" of travel, the little knob on the front loosens to allow the measurement dial to be zeroed.

Nick, i had a copy of the operators manual but had never seen the brochure/order sheet for one. so thats very interesting to see!

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

Well my latest project has been restoring some of the original features to the mill. Namely switchable reverse for the motor. The motor that’s in it is a single Phase 4 pole crompton Parkinson’s motor. And ran fine before I touched it.

however it was missing a stud for breaking it out into four wires and was wired directly to a mains plug. I’ve added a stud and separated out the wires into the original chock block. However once wired up to my switch, it’s running very slowly, humming loudly and then blowing the plug fuse. So I’m assuming the starter capacitor isn’t doing its job, or isn’t wired into the correct place. I have however left it where it was previously.

this is the original way it was wired

heres how I have it

and here’s the switch diagram I’m using

while I do know a little bit about electronics, I don’t really have a lot of experience with induction motors. So hopefully I’ve just made a silly mistake and one of you good folks could point me in the right direction?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

There's an AEI motor one here to give some guidance(2 pole I presume)

Put it on an RCD for safety and to protect the motor

Edited By Ady1 on 01/04/2023 23:32:55

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

ill give that a read. thanks!

im not entirely sure on poles, it rotates at just under 1500rpm so at 50Hz should be 4 pole. the garage plug circuit that the mill is plugged into has an RCD so no worries there.

 

also the motor does have a centrifugal switch, i know a few other brookes motors have the capacitor in the circuit between that switch and the start winding, however this one did not seem to be

Edited By TJ scott on 01/04/2023 23:51:46

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you suss it out don't over oil the bearings because if the centrifugal switch is at one end you can get it sticky and then have to "hand start" the unit… and yours looks a bit big for that…

The RCD is the important bit, don't switch it on without one in the circuit is my advice

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

well, after a bit more testing, im not any further forward to the motor running up to speed.

the motor will turn both directions, so the windings must be connected up right. the capacitor has now been tested and seems okay. so the capacitor connections must be wrong?

there is an RCD in the circuit so thats covered.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

An RCD will do little to protect the motor, only you ! An MCB is little better, a proper Direct on Line starter is what you need. Though long gone there should have been a circuit diagram on the under side of the terminal block cover. Since it has only one capacitor one must asume it is a standard circuit, ie the starting condenser is in series with start windings and the centrifugal switch. Noel.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Are there any markings inside the terminal box or maybe pasted inside the lid? A, AE, AZ, Z, K, T, S or what?

There are at least 5 different types of single-phase motors each wired differently; they can have zero, one or two capacitors (sometimes in the same cylinder), and a centrifugal switch, or not! And sorting out reverse adds another layer of complexity. Quite a few combinations to try unless some clues are found, and some cause magic smoke.

At least one capacitor being visible means it's not a split-phase motor, but it could be:

• Capacitor Start, Capacitor Run (2 variants), or
• Capacitor Start, Induction Run (has centrifugal switch), or
• Capacitor Start and Run.

Also, can you see the wire colours on the motor side of the terminals? Crompton Parkinson favoured Blue, Red, Yellow and Black, where Black and Red are always the Run winding. Yellow and Blue are the Start winding, and reverse is achieved by swapping Yellow and Blue over. But the capacitor(s) and switch have to be right.

The switch diagram looks OK to me: U1 U2 are Run, and Z1, Z2 are start, but there's no clue as to what type of motor is connected, so we need to identify what type you have. Do you have a multimeter?

I hope Les Jones and the other motor experts will be along soon. Single-phase motor aren't my best subject!

Dave

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

thanks guys, i really appreciate the help so far!

the terminal box has no markings whatsoever and while there was the dry, flaky remains of what may have once been a sticker on the inside of the cover plate, there is nothing left to identify exactly whats what.

having had the back of the motor case off, there is a centrifugal switch inside so that would indicate capacitor start, induction run. if it would help next time im out i can pop it back off and take a photo of the inisde wiring?

the internal wires are all black, however the two pairs do have matching insulation over the terminals, with the start windings being red and the run windings being green ( confusingly the capacitor itself has the same green insulation around the terminals where they connect to the terminal block)

i do have a multimeter, if you point me at what to test i can get some readings.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

In a section of Tubal Cains model engineers hand book is a series of circuit diagrams. First I would sort out getting it to run one way and the other. Then you can sort out the reversing switch. What sort is it Santon, dewhurst ?. The start windings may be blue and yellow, the run red and black.. Z1 and A1(U1) linked To live. wire from Z1 to centrifugal switch and then the cap and into the start windings. Other end of start windings to Z2 and linked to A2 (U2) neutral. reversing Z1 and Z2 are swapped. Noel.

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

Well, after moving the capacitor into series with the cut out switch. and running the wires directly to live and neutral. i now have a clockwise spinning motor!

i take it that the two going to live will be my U1,Z1 and the two going to buetral will be my U2, Z2 for the purposes of taking this to the switch?

im not entirely sure on the type of switch, its not a dewhurst. it has 9 pins set out almost in a grid orientation

[TJ scottParticipant @tjscott47694]

i did eventually get the motor wired up right not long after my last post, after stumbling across the literature from my motor way back in the day. unfortunately after another year of use its starting to get a bit toasty when its running for a bit, not sure yet if ill strip it apart to mess with the centrifugal switch/start circuit that i assume is no longer correctly switching off, but may just pick up a newer used motor. ill need to get the thing back ready for some heavy work as currently as it stands its going to be the only manual mill my universities formula student team has access to!

 

also i dont suppose anyone knows what thread the drawbar on one of these elliott/victoria indexing heads is? i can see from the old literature that there is a long and a short version, as mine only has the long version im fairly limited in what angles i can set it to, and am unable to have it 90 degrees to the table for bolt circles etc.

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