Vickers Bl 8 inch Howitzer cannon of 1917

[NilochParticipant @niloch]

The photographic detail is negligible but, out of interest, the John Player cigarette card No. 4 in the 12 card Artillery in Action set of 1917 shows an 8" howitzer. A ramp is shown behind each wheel, presumably, in an attempt to limit recoil. The back of the card reads: 'This type was employed very extensively, nearly 800 equipments (sic) in all being provided. During the War over 380,000 tons of 8 inch shell were showered on to the Germans during preparations for attacks, and while maintaining a protective curtain in front of advancing troops. Special tractors of the "caterpillar" pattern were used for moving these Howitzers which weigh from 101/2 to 14 tons. In the later "marks" (sic) the recoil cylinders are beneath the barrel'.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Niloch on 16/04/2019 11:19:44:

The photographic detail is negligible but, out of interest, the John Player cigarette card No. 4 in the 12 card Artillery in Action set of 1917 shows an 8" howitzer. A ramp is shown behind each wheel, presumably, in an attempt to limit recoil. …

Happens to be one for sale on ebay at the moment:

The gun appears to be emplaced on a slope, and I think the ramps are there to stop it rolling back. Unlike other WW1 artillery, I don't think the 8" howitzer needed ramps to help absorb recoil on the flat. Anyone know?

This picture is commercial copyright so I won't reproduce it. It shows the gun in a workshop with a smaller ramp at the front as well. I guess it's to stop the gun rolling away if it needed to be fired on a down slope.

Reminded me of the story of how Spike Milligan (Royal Artillery) first met Harry Secombe (Royal Signals) during WW2. Harry was sending messages at the bottom of a cliff when a gun fell over it. Spike arrived in the resulting chaos and asked 'Has anyone seen a gun?', to which Harry replied 'What colour was it?'

Poor old Mal, now he needs to make two pairs of ramps to complete his gun. I bet it had cleaning rods, tools and a canvas cover as well…

Dave

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

… Sorry, old chap – remembering Latin from school – adjective/comparative/superlative : eg. bonus (good)/melior (better)/optimus (best)…

… Didn't do Latin at school; German yes, got by with Arabic in the MEast in Oman,Saudi, Abu Dhabi, bit of Russian at Sakhalin, smattering of Hungarian ( should be second lang.) very good at double Dutch. … as far as Latin goes… et to brute, Non illigitemi carborundum est , Semper Fidelis, Honi soi qui mal y pens, deu et mon droit,

Temptemus potest , Circeiensium nobis ad… I'll put my coat on now

George.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Howitzers shoot over hils from the reverse slope. The blocks are to quieten recoil, as for being parked on a slope, well my mind boggles as it would be very difficult to place in that position. All they had were horses and horses do not like backing up, the gun would have had to be winched into that impossible position. Emplacements would have been dug out flat to level the area and to give side protection incase of counter fire.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/04/2019 13:23:57:

…

The gun appears to be emplaced on a slope, and I think the ramps are there to stop it rolling back. Unlike other WW1 artillery, I don't think the 8" howitzer needed ramps to help absorb recoil on the flat. Anyone know?

This picture is commercial copyright so I won't reproduce it. It shows the gun in a workshop with a smaller ramp at the front as well. I guess it's to stop the gun rolling away if it needed to be fired on a down slope.

…

Dave

The front ramps are to limit forward run when rolling down out of recoil, so might well be used on flat ground too. Might perhaps not be required when firing from a reverse slope, but I'd guess that would only have been done if there was no time to emplace properly. I think the increasing use of motor tractors might have made this happen more often towards the end of the war – I'm thinking of the 'hurrying batteries' mentioned in poetry suggesting that movement was used progressively more than emplacement as a quicker, easier and more certain way to frustrate counterfire

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Hi all thanks for the info and import on the Howitzer cannon, Dave the cannon in the picture is a howitzer mk I to mk V and weighed in at a heavy 13.5 tons [first two pictures below] ,Niloch the howitzer cannons were moved around with tractors with the caterpillar design,traction engines [last picture] horses [the pulling ring on the outer part of the hub was used for] ,I think the soldiers at that time would use any means to their disposal. The Howitzer that i'am trying to build is a mk VI to VII [bottom two pictures] which was a lighter cannon and weighed in at just under 9 tons, first gun rolled of the assembly line 1 march 1916 still moved around by the same means earlier on in WW1 ,when compared to the earlier versions it had a better recoil system but still needed ramps under its wheels to control the rest of its considerable recoil, i'am no expert on these cannons its just what I have read up on them before starting the build so i could be wrong.

Thanks Mal.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Interesting to note from the above that the Mk VI, VII & VIII saw a range improvement of 1,800yds over the Mk I-V using the same calibre and weight of shell. Why might that be, improvements in explosive technology perhaps ?
DaveD

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Meunier on 17/04/2019 19:42:22:

Interesting to note from the above that the Mk VI, VII & VIII saw a range improvement of 1,800yds over the Mk I-V using the same calibre and weight of shell. Why might that be, improvements in explosive technology perhaps ?
DaveD

Another 2 5/8 calibres added to barrel length and 200 fps more muzzle velocity. Don't know, but I'd guess the extra barrel length might've been enough to produce that improvement without changing the propellant charge.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

What's going on in this picture?

The 3 chaps at the smoking breech look as if the gun has just been fired. But what about the two on the right? Surely no-one would sit on the recuperator or stand on the wheel during firing. Could this be a photo of a gun being cleaned, rather than one being fired? Is that metal bucket with a peculiar half-moon lip in the foreground part of the gun's cleaning equipment?

When I was a little boy there were loads of WW1 veterans about. If only I'd thought to ask…

Dave

[WatfordParticipant @watford]

It might be steam from boiling water, being used to clean the barrel. It looks as if the guy nearest the breach has some sort of long handled thingie, probably a swab for the same purpose. I don't know if this was how it was done but .303 rifles were cleaned like this after shooting. Might account for the strange bucket as well.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 16/04/2019 13:56:34:

Howitzers shoot over hils from the reverse slope. The blocks are to quieten recoil, as for being parked on a slope, well my mind boggles as it would be very difficult to place in that position. All they had were horses and horses do not like backing up, the gun would have had to be winched into that impossible position. Emplacements would have been dug out flat to level the area and to give side protection incase of counter fire.

Extraordinary efforts put into moving big guns sometimes. A century later this one is still in position 3000m up in the Italian Alps. Too difficult to remove I expect!

Don't know if they're still there, but one of the forts in Malta I explored as a boy had a number of giant bottle shaped Victorian muzzle loaders dumped in the moat. Taken out of service by dropping them over the parapet!

Dave

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

OK, 303 rifles ammo had corrosive primers and the method of cleaning was to pour boiling water down the barrel and the oil it.. This was still going in 1955 in some units with old ammo stocks.

The idea that the Howitzer is being cleaned with boiling water is more likely correct as the bag charges used would have been ignited with what is called a, 'Vent tube' this would have had a corrosive ignition cap.

So needed boiling water to dissolve the corrosive elements involved.

The Howitzers did not use. 'Fixed Ammunition' but seperate heads and bag charges which varied according to range required plus the elevation of the gun. I think there were about six variations of charge available. In these days what elements of charge are left after firing are burnt in a pile and boy, does it get hot.

The pellets of propellant are the size of Quavers, hollowed out, these being treated with a chemical to inhibit fast burning. Sometimes graphite. Also there was a small patch of pure Tin placed on the charge which when the charge fired, melted and affiniated with the copper from the driving band making a Bronze deposit which was brittle and was easily cleaned off the inside rifling.

[ChrisBParticipant @chrisb35596]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/04/2019 16:45:12:

Don't know if they're still there, but one of the forts in Malta I explored as a boy had a number of giant bottle shaped Victorian muzzle loaders dumped in the moat. Taken out of service by dropping them over the parapet!

Dave

Most of the British forts in Malta were built in the Victorian period and were equipped with 12.5in RML 38t guns, might be that's what you saw. Most were scrapped and cut up ages ago and only the ones which were impossible to remove were left such as those at fort Delimara (still there) and a 17.7in RML 100t gun at fort Rinella.

Dont know when the authorities are going to wake up and restore those forts and remaining cannon…such a pity all crumbling and rusting away.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 18/04/2019 16:54:15:

…

The pellets of propellant are the size of Quavers, hollowed out, these being treated with a chemical to inhibit fast burning. Sometimes graphite. Also there was a small patch of pure Tin placed on the charge which when the charge fired, melted and affiniated with the copper from the driving band making a Bronze deposit which was brittle and was easily cleaned off the inside rifling.

In WW1 days it would've been bundles of Cordite sticks, like thick orangey-brown spaghetti, inside a cotton shalloon or silk bag. Cordite MD was 'Deterred' – treated as Clive said to slow down the burn, flatten the spike of the pressure pulse and maintain the lower pressure for longer as the projectile accelerated up the barrel. Cordite MDT, used in smallarms, was 'T'ubular with a hole up the middle of the stick to evolve propellant gasses from an increasing interior surface as the exterior surface reduced, in order to maximise the progressive effect – or more truthfully to minimise the inevitable degressive effect as the volume of barrel behind the projectile to be filled increased so rapidly.

Cordite was actually quite a good propellant in some ways, but even the later 'M'odified variants ran a high flame temperature, which gave them an unfavourable barrel-life comparison with later alternatives.

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Hi all, interesting reading guy's. DaveD the Howitzer mk VI had a range of 10,745y ,,9,825m and a barrel length of 14.7 calibres 117.7 inches [which is the one i'am trying to build ], now the mk VII and VIII had a range of 12,300y but the barrel length of 17.3 calibres 138.4 inches . I think Mick has this right and its just down to the barrel. Managed to get some more work done on the wheels last couple of days, hubs in place and rivets on the wheels finished next a bronze bearing in the hubs ,couple of picture below to see how things look …..

Thanks Mal.

[Eric CoxParticipant @ericcox50497]

Looking at the spokes being milled took me back to my apprenticeship and milling steel samples ready for tensile testing. It was the dread of every apprentice.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Looking better every day, super work Mal.

George.

[MeunierParticipant @meunier]

Thanks MickB1 and Mal for the explanation. Great work Mal.
DaveD

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Mick B, re- my mention of the propellant used by the Howitzers I was serving, the comparison to quaver size celulose was for 155 mm M109 A1, howitzers.

Of course Cordite was used for rifle 303 ammo for many years and in fact I have seen the manufacturing plant for cordite at Longtown near carlisle as I was an inspecter there once a year.

The cordite was extruded through a screen and cut off in lengths with a Bronze knife. Individual cartridge loads done by hand and tied with silk. The case then formed with the cordite inside. In fact when entering the facility you had to de-magnetise yourself, that is static electricity, no metal or watches allowed. anywhere. The facility is no longer in use by the way.

Clive

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Very interesting read Clive thanks for sharing, learning more about this subject than I ever thought .

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

My Father was RA and was the gun Sgt for the Europa point gun on GIbralter, I have a series of photos showing how they pulled up the gun barrels to the top of the rock. fixed into the rock walls were swivel rings and pulley ropes were attached to the trolley the barrel sat on. It would seem that a lot of manual work plus a Steam engine provided the pull.

Clive

[mal webberParticipant @malwebber91786]

Hello all ,next part on the Howitzer build are the stub axles ,now started on the first one going on the drawings in picture 2 and all was looking good to me, until I looked at a couple of pictures where I noticed the hubs look a different size, maybe it's because the one in the picture is a later model made in the U.S and the one in the drawing is an early model made in the U.K ,what do you think go with the one i've made or back to the drawing board and have another go with different sizes to match the stub axle in the picture.

Thanks Mal.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Wonderful project Mal. I hope to see it on the cover of Model Engineer when it is finished.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Simon Collier on 03/05/2019 00:56:04:

Wonderful project Mal. I hope to see it on the cover of Model Engineer when it is finished.

Huh? You're easily pleased!

I was hopin' for the release of a full set of drawings and a kit of materials so's I can build one!

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Only because I know my limitations Mick.

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