Vickers 8″ howitzer complete

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

A club is a collection of people with common interests and attitudes. This means some clubs won't suit some people, but by teh same token clubs must be as varied as people.

I have visited both Derby and Burton societoes with my little shunter,. I am all to aware of its shortcomings, but I was welcomed and congratulated, even though i could see the standard of other folk's work was far higher. If the first club you visit doesn't fit, try another.

Neil

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

I do find very puzzling the use of the term "rivet counter" used in a pejoritive sense, not just currently on this forum but going back over many years. Why should trying to achieve a perfect result or trying to help someone else to do so be treated with derision? As Norman has commented, Model Engineering is a hobby which we're all entitled to persue in our own way; and if your choice is to attempt to create a totally accurate replica of the real thing then why should that objective be mocked? Surely it should be lauded? And if you try, in good faith, to point out an error to some one would you expect an adverse reaction. As it used to say in the old "Teach Yourself" books, "GIve instruction to a wise man and he will be yet wiser". My own work is no more than average but when I see some super detailed and accurate model at an exhiition I don't snort "rivet counter" and become filled with resentment, rather I think about the research, dedication and hard work that's gone into it and become determined to try and raise my own game. Where's the merit in mediocrity?

Furthermore it's not just (some) "locomotive fanatics" that try to achieve excellence. Look at the way the small scale electric railways have changed over the years with their increasing fidelity to prototype. The same applies to model aircraft and no doubt other modelling disciplines. Well over twenty years ago I recall rivet counter comments in the correspondence columns of the model railway press but by comparing a "Railway Modeller" magazine from those days with the later "Model Railway Journal" magazines you can see how far the "rivet counters " have pushed the boundaries.

As to the Howitzer, it's a fine piece of modelling by any standard and the owner should be justifiably proud of it. I've no idea if it's true to scale or not and it's not really important but nonetheless if someone in a position of knowledge is able to make a valid and constructive criticism then where's the problem? That's how we learn and such criticism shouldn't necessarily be seen as arrogant or insulting. If someone points out an error in my work I'm glad to be told and will try to correct it. Better than having my head left in the sand because they don't want to upset my delicate sensitivities.

On occasion Clint Eastwood has commented that "A man should know his limitations". Maybe knowing our limitations we should be cautious that we don't become resentful of those who are less limited and maybe fearsome of being put in the shade a little. Don't forget, it's said that… "we come to hate what we fear".

Michael

[bob gouldParticipant @bobgould42821]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by michael m on 28/11/2013 23:23:35:

I do find very puzzling the use of the term "rivet counter" used in a pejoritive sense, not just currently on this forum but going back over many years. Why should trying to achieve a perfect result or trying to help someone else to do so be treated with derision? .

Michael

.

Michael,

I think it fair to say that this usage is applied only to those "Anoraks" that know only how many rivets there should be [etc.] and are keen to say so in "Stage Whispers" with much tut-tutting.

Constructive criticism, from "people who can", tends not to attract derision or cause offence.

MichaelG.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

To me, rivet counter is synonymous with 'nit picker' – i.e. those who go out of their way to find fault, rather than those who strive for perfection.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Neil, when a nit picker/rivet counter annoys me, I just ask him/her about there model or what ever, if its about one of my hot air engines, I just ask "how many have you built", usually they have never built a thing. Ian S C

[bob gouldParticipant @bobgould42821]

I think models are very personal things. it's down to the individual if they are happy wit their model. Anyone can find fault with anything. Its probably down to personality; you are either a guy who see the good or you see the bad in things.. Frankly im glad im a guy who defines things by their positive attributes

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I can still remember proudly showing my rebuilt Tribsa ( full size) to an "expert" . The plug leads should be black for that year , he said. Did it bother me?

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Well Gordon – it seems that you remembered it!

I find it sad that someone has to overlook the good due to an obsession with the colour of plug leads or the number of rivets – what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them?

A good reply  to your critic might have been :- " Yes of course the standard for that year was black but, as an expert, you may remember that the first 3 produced used  *pink* ( insert the colour you used)  and this is a true copy of the second of those. ( or something similar)

Norman

Edited By NJH on 30/11/2013 10:49:19

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Criticism/being a critic is the easiest job in the entire world

Any fool can be a critic and the internet abounds with it

Useful Constructive criticism is more difficult and requires some genuine experience and effort

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

I like the residue on the breech screw – that's attention to detail!

Mark

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Personaly I'dvery much welcome any criticsm the rivtet counters or not are willing to provide on anything I've built. One should be confident enough in anything they have built to there very best of there abilitys, and you should be able to seperate the worthless comments from the ones who are honetly and really trying to help.

My dad always told me you can even learn something from an Are*hole. He thought it was how not to be an are*hole. But to be honest, just maybe some of us are maybe a bit too thin skinned? They are just 'words' after all. From my understanding, there's some very severe 'rivet counting' in any of the major M.E. exhibitions in the U.K. I haven't read many questioning the judges comments for any of that style of competition.

I'll bet there's very few here that don't look very close at any picture of almost any model and not see a few details they might do different.They just might be not quite honest enough to say so here, but there still thinking it. Builders such as Cherry Hinds, Chris Vine, and more than a few others here including the likes of Graham Meeks, any many many others are a bit different than us mere mortals. But I do think we can all learn at least a little from some of those "rivet counters". I would think at least 90% of them are trying to help in some way. Were all not the best at expressing our honest opinions sometimes. Many times people mean well but are taken totally wrong.

But perfect or not, this Vikers is a very interesting and vey high quality build. I really appreciate the builders efforts and his pictures and posts. I could be incorrect, but due to past comments about other "cannon" bulds in the late 90's and ino the early 2,000's, I think the M.E. magazine is not publishing anything like this any more. We really should appreciate this thread for what it is.

Pete

Edited By Pete on 30/11/2013 12:30:23

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

I was puzzled at the time of my original question posted on this thread, and I'm still puzzled, this time at the reaction. I thought there'd be more support for my views but apparently not, though it's worth remembering that this forum has, in common with many others, only a small hardcore of regular posters who don't necessarily represent the views of the silent majority. Looking at the responses there appears to be an element of defensiveness and I wonder if my posting was fully read. Careful reading will reveal the essence of my views.

"Trying to help someone to achieve a perfect result."……."pointing out an error in good faith"……"someone in a position of knowledge able to make a valid and constructive criticism"

Having considered some of the responses, I'll make the following comments, stressing that there is no personal criticism of the poster or his models/etc or his abilities. None is implied or should be inferred.

"How many have you built, usually they've never built a thing" Ian S.C Well not withstanding the fact that "usually" is a bit of a weasel word the suggestion appears to be thus "you haven't built much/anything but I have.so your views are not valid". Do you need to be a professional footballer to see if a game is well played? So if you employ a decorator to hang wallpaper are you not able to expres your dismay or approval of the the job because you've never dipped a brush into a paste bucket in your life? The world has many academics and experts who are not practical men/women. How many architects have built a building. How many naval architects have hammered a rivet into a piece of plate. "I've made models and you haven't " could even be seen as elitist.

And from Norman "An obsession with the colur of plug leads or the number of rivets – what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them" Well remember that everything in this life is relative. That which is your norm may well be considered by someone else as "obsessive behaviour by someone who's got nothing better to do with his life." I've heard this comment expressed about stamp collectors, bus enthusiasts, trainspotters etc etc. The comment is slightly offensive. Michael G in his more considered reponse uses the well understood albeit colloquial term "anorak" A pejorative term often used about railway enthusiasts generally. of which there must be a good number on this forum including myself. I believe that Michael G's views are probably in line with mine but in view of what I've read in some postings I feel that he's being a little optimistic in his final sentence. Norman's final comment, effectively, "just lie about it" is, I assume, tongue in cheek.

Ady1's final comment is perfectly valid though I would add "knowledge" to the list of critic's required qualifications and "uninformed" prior to the word critic in his first two sentences.

And in a posting prior to mine – "As always a coat of paint will cover up most of the faults and give shape and shine and shadow to soften all the edges. Revel in a job well done and sit and admire it"….Clive. Is that really the advice you'd give to a modeller Clive? Please say it's tongue in cheek. And if I may be a bit tongue in cheek myself and introduce an element of levity, were you a used car dealer in a previous life?

And last but not least Pete. Well said Pete, you've put it in a nutshell. "Personaly I'dvery much welcome any criticsm the rivtet counters or not are willing to provide on anything I've built. One should be confident enough in anything they have built to there very best of there abilitys, and you should be able to seperate the worthless comments from the ones who are honetly and really trying to help." Yes Pete,that's the way forward.

I think that maybe George Thomas is smiling down from somewhere.

Michael

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

No Michael, never a car salesman but I have chipped off a lot of paint and found some horrors underneath. Painting a model particularly a military model brings out its purpose, the camouflage and the earthy green gives it the right image and needs little imagination to see it in action.

I have made several military models, models of Thunderbird ground to air missiles, 1 I left natural Alu. the other I sprayed matt black and they had a totally different look and aspect.

I made a model of a field cannon and made the wooden parts dark and brass as natural, unfortunately it was stolen.

Another was a model of a ground to air photographic missile that was pre-programmed to fly out and return and then parachute down. This was for a presentation to a retiring Officer. He was very pleased with it.

familiarity with the item you are making allows a greater insight into what is achievable and how it should look.

Bobs model is a nice model and deserves a place to be admired not only as an example of gun used in the Great war but also in its uniqueness as a one off. I still say it needs a coat of paint.

Clive

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Michael

You obviously have strong view on this and you and I may well have different approaches to the hobby. What I do is only to please myself and I certainly don't wish to criticize others efforts.

Any criticism though should always be balanced and constructive – I've certainly overheard some very destructive comments at exhibitions from those who might be termed here as "rivet counters"

So it seems that that we at some variance – that's OK but I would only ask that when you quote me you include the whole quote viz :-

I find it sad that someone has to overlook the good due to an obsession with the colour of plug leads or the number of rivets – what do they have in their lives if this minutia is so important to them?

I find all life full of imperfections and that it is better to emphasize the good.

Regards

Norman

[Peter TuckerParticipant @petertucker86088]

Looking at the photos above I am reminded of "the smoking gun", but must say this is the only one I've seen with its own packet of fags.

Peter.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Peter

As an ex smoker ( stopped about 45 years ago) I was waiting in the queue at my local newsagents recently when the guy in front bought a packet of cigarettes. I couldn't believe the price – I assume therefore that the gun is there to protect cigarettes!

Norman

Edited By NJH on 30/11/2013 17:48:10

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by bob gould on 30/11/2013 09:47:16:

I think models are very personal things. it's down to the individual if they are happy wit their model. Anyone can find fault with anything. Its probably down to personality; you are either a guy who see the good or you see the bad in things.. Frankly im glad im a guy who defines things by their positive attributes

When I make a model I'm cursed with seeing only the errors – and end up carrying around a mental "to do" list for ever. None the less, the first time that engine fires up is an absolutely golden, unrepeatable moment which is very personal to me. So off I go to build the next one…

Steve

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 30/11/2013 16:33:22:

Bobs model is a nice model and deserves a place to be admired not only as an example of gun used in the Great war but also in its uniqueness as a one off. I still say it needs a coat of paint.

Clive

I agree, it would also help with the dusting (!).

Steve

[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

I'm much more of a loco enthusiast, but this looks a smashing model. When fired, should put the "Fear of God" into the local moggies, even without a coat of paint. Well done, Bob.

Dennis

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

In the head-on photo the big nut looks much more in proportion to those in photos of the real thing. Other than paint, the one other thing I would do is file the markings off those bolt heads on the front of the carriage!

Neil

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

You know, I was asking for moderation in rivet counting, not a complete absence.

And, if possible, tailor the comments so as not to excessively bruise a proud owner's pleasure in their model, or put off a newbie with very deep, but extremely narrow obsessions.

Regards,

Richard

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

I'm sure all will agree that the rivet counting aspect of this thread has probably reached it's conclusion but I would just like to make my final remarks. Firstly, my apologies to Norman for not quoting him fully. Re-reading my posting I can see it may appear that I've distorted his comment by selectively quoting. It was most certainly not my intention, so sorry for that. I do have strong views on model engineering fidelity it's true, but I'm not evangelical about it and I would never (and never have) make an unsolicited criticism about anyone else's work. For various reasons I'm a great admirer of LBSC, who'd be the first to admit that he didn't make scale models and that was not his intention. I admire his engines for what they are, have made two myself in the past and started another some years ago that may or may not be finished someday. "What I do is only to please myself."………..Yes Norman, me too, so maybe we're not at too much variance.

"You know, I was asking for moderation in rivet counting, not a complete absence." says Richard. Yes I agree with what you say, but the problem is, to somewhat quote the professor, "It all depends on what you mean by.moderation". That's the rub, back to the issue of relativity again. Anyway I do totally agree about not hurting anyone's feelings.

Clive, I'm happy that you took my little joke in good part. I've always had an interest in military modelling myself, as a boy I loved to discuss WW1 with my grandfathers as they'd both seen active service. One of them had a photo that had been taken of him posing against a tank and at about 11 years old I made a model of one. (and I admit it, no particular mark .) Made of Meccano, cardboard ,matchboxes and all sorts. My mother sewed me some tracks out of wide elastic and I spent forever glueing on bits of matchstick to represent the strakes. Finished off with water colour paint I entered it into a school modelling competition. Didn't win, that honour went to a girl who'd made a miniature garden in a baking tray. Nonetheless the interest remained and grew, and in latter years I made a number of visits to the old battlefields. That's why the Vickers 8" Howitzer thread interested me so. Studying the old archive film the howitzers seemed to be such a defining feature of the war and I often thought I'd like to make a model of such. I was however more taken with the earlier pre Vickers versions, which I understand used redundant barrels from naval guns. Sadly none were preserved, they were probably all worn out by the end of the war and as I was unable to locate detailed drawings it never happened. So yes, apart from admiring Bob's model I'm very envious of him. Must admit however that I'd prefer mine painted.

I've never had any formal engineering training and when I first started model engineering, in my teens, with a real old iron of a lathe (cost £8) I really struggled. A friend's father was a time served engineer and he started to come round and give me advice and assistance, particularly in respect of how to set jobs up, sharpen tools etc. It seemed strange to me at the time that he had zero personal interest in model engineering but he helped me to complete a "Mollyette". I then started on a "Tich" but in time I came to realise that there was one small problem, as a mentor, with this kindly man who gave of his time so freely and helped me so much. He never criticised anything I did, always "yes,that's fine" What a shock when I went to my first ME exhibition and realised how poor my efforts were. Seeing for the first time some of George Thomas's work was a a damascene moment for me. That's what I wanted to do. My good hearted helper, just being kind, had done me a very small disservice, albeit outweighed many fold by all he'd taught me. Though he's long since gone I will always remember him with fondness.

George Thomas's was always a counsel of perfection, and he was very considered in his approach to engineering. I very much admire his work and that approach, and though I may not be able to emulate him I will keep trying to improve and happily accept any informed criticism of what Ido.

Michael

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

More than well put Michael, I guess we all have our own logical and well reasoned thoughts about this. It could be a subject where no one is really 100% right or wrong with there thoughts?

But, since George Thomas has been mentioned at least a couple of times, I hope the following isn't out of line for this thread. I very much wish He was alive today just so I had the chance to at least thank him. He's had a huge affect on what I've learned and exactly how I view this hobby. There's zero doubt in my mind his Model Engineers Workshop Manual is the finest book I've ever read that's been written with this hobby in mind, and in my opinion it should be required reading by any member of this forum. And yes, it IS that good.

But I think it was Bill Bennet? who is still alive and friends with someone I know who also deserves to be thanked for that book. He did from my understanding put a great deal of time and effort into Georges past writings including unfinished work that was never published while assembling everything that was included in it.

Pete

[bob gouldParticipant @bobgould42821]

Thank you for all your comments. I am going to be painting it after i have finished putting the rubber inserts into the wheels and i have also managed to get better brake handwheels for the front. The decision is weather to paint it standard drab or in one of the fancy colour schemes that were done locally by the crews.

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