Vertex Tool Cutter Grinder

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Has anyone used one of these ?

Any tips on what to look for in a second-hand one would be appreciated.

Chris

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Run it to make sure it runs smoothly without rattles or hunting sounds indicating worn bearings

Check all the locking levers to make sure they haven't been overtightened in an attempt to make it more rigid than it is meant to be. When locked check the toolpost is firm with no trace of movement owing to mating faces not being flat. Check that when released each joint moves smoothly without jerks.

[chris jParticipant @chrisj]

Thanks Bazyle

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Chris posted this question which got me looking at these pieces of equipment. I see RGD to them for about 612 quid + VAT and I've asked out local Vertex supplier for a price. However there are many ways of skining a cat and ended up on the Alibaba site http://www.alibaba.com/ Just put in "U2 cutter grinder" and there you'll find countless suppliers of the same tool ready to ship direct fron China, including Vertex. Many will do a single order for around US$450 and about $350 shipping (it varies) I got one quote and the unit weighs 60kg and they charge US$5.60/Kg. So thats a total of 495 quid landed + VAT (my quote was with the attachments)

So this looks promising so as its going be impossible to do what Baz suggests, and I asume he's thinking of a used item anyway.

So the next question has anybody got one of these, from any source, and what do they think of them?

(if you are skeptical about Alibaba I've only heard good reports)

Pete

 

 

Edited By Doubletop on 13/09/2012 06:45:56

[John CParticipant @johnc47954]

Hi Pete,

Watch out for the import duty! That may change the final price significantly.

John

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

John

Yes I had forgotten about that for you guys. But I'm in New Zealand.

Question still stands though. Has anybody used one?

Pete

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Yes got one, had it ages.

First point they are not universal cutter grinders, they only call them that.

 

In fact they are single lip cutter grinders, made for doing D bit style engraving cutters.

 

They can do some milling cutters but you have to jump thru hoops to do them.If you want to do end mils and slot drills it would pay to look elsewhere. I use mine a lot and like it but I'm doing engraving cutters on it, which is what it was originally designed for.

 

John S.

Edited By John Stevenson on 13/09/2012 09:08:11

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Thanks John, That's just the information I needed

Pete

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Well I went and purchased one of these directly from China from one of the Alibaba suppliers. USD450 including all the attachments and USD336 shipping as it was allegedly 60Kg (USD5.60/kg). It arrived with the waybill saying it was 38kg and the box had 48kg printed on the side. A bit of a debate about the shipping cost charged and true weight of the shipment and I eventually got them to rebate me.

It also arrived with only three collets although the website said 5, they sent me the other 2.

The instructions were in Chinese however I had down loaded the English instructions posted on the RGD site. It’s debatable which is the more useful. I resorted to reading the RGD instructions looking at the diagrams in the supplied instructions. In all, pretty hopeless. I think the RGD instructions are a copy of some I've found on a US site. It’s clear they have been poorly translated from the original Chinese copy. One point; the back page refers to R8 collets, based on that I ordered a set from CTC before the machine arrived. Beware the U2 uses 3C collets and the U3 uses R8. I now have a spare set of R8 collets.

The reason I purchased machine is I'm new to this game and don't have the years of experience some of you have using off hand grinders. I needed something to do the job and really couldn't be fussed making a Quorn, a Worden or whatever, I took the view that the problem is the same and any solution is going to be similar. With that in mind one of the club members had made a Quorn and had the manual so I borrowed it. In most aspects my assumption was correct and using the Quorn manual I can now get results. OK it doesn't have the ability to swing the head, adjust its height or run in reverse, but none of the other cutter grinders can do that as far as I can see. It doesn't have the long bar and tailstock, but who needs it. The rest is pretty similar and using the Quorn guide its possible to establish the intent and work out how to use the U2 to do the same. As John says it’s suited to making single point cutters but you can do that on the Quorn as well.

I’m happy with it but would be happier if somebody who knew what they were doing wrote a proper guide for it in English.(please)

Pete

[TomkParticipant @tomk39956]

Doubletop

These machines are copies of the Deckel alexander tool & Cutter grinders web page

**LINK**

I have the the SO model and bought a manual from the above web site. It covers all the models and is a copy of the the original manuals from Deckal. It cost £30 but was worth the money as it it allow me to understand how the machine worked.

Looking at pictures of the vertex the controls and layout of the machine are very similar if not identical I am sure the deckal manuals would help you.

tomk

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Tom

Thanks for the info. Once I knew it was a Deckel copy I went searching for information and there is a Yahoo group "pantograph engravers"

**LINK**

They have parts of the Deckel and Alexander manuals in the files section. Given the nature of the forum predominantly about single lip cutters. One of the docs does cover the drilling sharpening attachment but there nothing in lathe tools or milling cutters. Which isn’t surprising. The Quorn ,manual covers that.

Parts of the manulas bear a striking resemblance to the Chinese manual that came with my machine and the translated version on the RGD site. To the extent the various parts of the machine appear to use the same nonclementure. Funny that.

As a matter of interest what topics does your manual contain?

Pete

[TomkParticipant @tomk39956]

Pete

My manual only covers single lip cutters and using the drill attachment.

Did your machine come with with the lathe tool and end mill attachment.

I know the therory of how to use the end mill attachment to sharpen end mills and slot dills as the principle is the same as using a tool and cutter grinder.

if you need any help let me know.

Tom

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Tom

That's about what I'd got from the Yahoo forum, 26 pages of SOE guide with the drill attachment and 15 assorted pages for the SO covering single lip cutters. The wording for the drill attachment is a direct copy for the Chinglish translation I got from RGD but they changed the references for the drill attachment by adding a "K". However, the references to machine parts is exactly the same as for the Deckel but they don't match the nomenclature of the controls used in the document. No wonder I was confused. Conclusion; go to the Yahoo group and get the Deckel SOE guide from there.

For the Milling and Lathe attachments. the Quorn guide is more than adequate. As the Quorn was from a 1974 ME series I’d guess the Deckel came first and there's no denying the similarity of the design in the work holding head. The only major difference being the Deckel cross slide becomes the Quorn swinging headstock

The only part that seems to be missing for sharpening milling cutters is the tooth rest, that with a few other bits and bobs on the Quorn none of which shouldn’t be too hard to replicate.

Thanks again for the reference the fog has now cleared.

Pete

[MEinThailandParticipant @meinthailand]

Wow! I wish I had read this before I bought my 'Tool And Cutter Grinder' in Bangkok, Thailand. I probably wouldn't have bought it.

In Thailand you can't simply buy another drill or end mill when one goes blunt. As a Brit retiree in Thailand my strategy to save on the cost (and difficulty) of renewing blunt cutters was this tool and cutter grinder.

It came with the three main accessories, Drill Sharpener, End Mill Attachment and Lathe Tool Attachment. (Shown in front left to right)

The collets are labeled R8.

The machine is well built and very heavy. There was no manual with it.

As to what all the handles do I have no idea.

As I get it to do some useful functions I'll post the details including photos and videos on my ModelEngineeringInThailand.com website on the Buying And Using A Tool And Cutter Grinder In Thailand Page.

The links to the operating manuals in the posts above are a godsend to me. The Northern Industrial Tools (426245.pdf) and Central Machinery (45707.pdf) Manuals being particularly informative. I will print them off and study them.

So a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this topic – I am very grateful.

In return, as I said, I will be posting detailed descriptions, photos and videos on my website as I go through the learning process. Hope this helps.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by MEinThailand on 25/12/2013 01:27:30:

As I get it to do some useful functions I'll post the details including photos and videos on my ModelEngineeringInThailand.com website on the Buying And Using A Tool And Cutter Grinder In Thailand Page. …

.

Thanks and Best Wishes to all involved in getting to this point.

… An excellent outcome.

MichaelG.

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

A bit of information

live found these machines use a variety of collets. The Warco uses L20 collets, which are quite expensive and not readily available…

AliExpress sell a set of 17 metric “U2” as they call them L20 collets for approximately £100 delivered to the uk

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

I thought the U2 collets were very expensive in the UK at £20 each so I bought a cheapish set of ER collets from Arc and made a U2 to ER holder. It took longer to work out fitting the ER taper into the U2 taper than it did to make. The buttress thread was cut just like any other with the tool ground on the bench grinder. I am pleased with the result and the drills cut really well.

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Nice work..I’m considering doing the same, when I get some experience at thread cutting…I’m still on the steep learning curve…

[John Hall 7Participant @johnhall7]

Nice work..I’m considering doing the same, when I get some experience at thread cutting…I’m still on the steep learning curve…

[lfoggyParticipant @lfoggy]

I have one, purchased from Chronos a few years ago. Mine takes 5C collets. It is definitely not limited to single lip grinding. I find it very useful for all manner of grinding tasks. I use it regularly to regrind the axial teeth on slot and end mills which is very easy. I also sharpen the radial spiral teeth and this works well with the supplied attachment for cutters down to about 6mm diameter. If you have a selection of different shaped wheels, you can sharpen all manner of other cutters as well. I reground a set of ‘rotabroach’ annular cutters last week. There is an attachment for square lathe tools that I don’t often use as I have a Worden grinder as well, but the attachment does work.

With a bit of ingenuity, you can grind radii as well.

Stefan Gotteswinter has a good video on YouTube demonstrating the utility and versatility of the grinder.

I would certainly recommend it for the home workshop.

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