Use of coal, oil and fossil fuels

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Tidal lagoon energy is very expensive to build and has a significant environmental impact – not from harmful chemicals, (although making concrete is one of the biggest producers of CO2), but from the impact on nature of damming river estuaries.

When I referred to tidal energy, I specified tidal FLOW, not tidal lagoon.

Water is 8 times as dense as air, so water turbines can be 1/8 the size of a wind turbine for the same output. The tide flows four times a day, and is predictable hundreds of years into the future.

We could put a water turbine at the base of every off-shore wind turbine post – horizontally arranged so it would work with any direction of flow without needing azimuth adjustment. Sea water is very corrosive, so only the turbine would be below the water, the generator and electrics etc. would be housed and protected inside the wind turbine post.

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

The numerous sewerage spills that have been reported are mainly caused by the sewerage system having to handle both surface water and sewerage so when a storm occurs the system is easily overloaded. Have a fairly vague piece of legislation or possibly only guide lines allowing releases in exceptional circumstances doesn't compel the treatment companies to improve or invest in their infrastructure. So we have got we have got and it may get to a point where it can't be fixed.

CS

[JAParticipant @ja]

John

I know of heavy water but not light water. Your ratio of densities is out by two orders of magnitude (air about 0.077 lb/ft^3, water 62.4 lb/ft^3).

JA

Dave

I did not know that the water and sewage companies actually borrowed money.

Edited By JA on 08/08/2023 13:22:14

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

Posted by JA on 08/08/2023 13:16:22:

I did not know that the water and sewage companies actually borrowed money.

They got privatised, then bought up by banks and hedge-funds. They promptly used them as collateral for large loans which were paid out as director's salaries and bonuses, and as large dividends to shareholders. The main offender (an Australian bank) then sold it's shares for a profit just before the s**t hit the fan (or the river…).

Capitalism in action

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

When I worked for Anglian Water, a sewage treatment works had its pumps and capacity set at 3 x dry weather flow. Once that exceeded the sewage treat plant could not cope, and excess was either stored in large tanks or overflowed into rivers…..

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Where I live the soil is very sandy, in fact go 3 or 3 feet down and its porous sandstone. All the surface water goes down the foul sewer It wouldn't be difficult for everyone to have soakaways, and the water off the roads could be diverted into the canals and rivers. However there is no financial incentive for me to dig soakaways. The local Scout hut reduced their water rate by digging a soakaway, they were charged on the basis of roof area for sending the rain water down the foul drain. One of our major roads runs parallel to the river. The gullies don't empty into the river, in fact because they never clear them out they don't empty at all. I do now that ideally you'd get the road silt out before discharge, but surely silt is better than effluent.

On the topic of privatisation, governments can borrow money more cheaply than private companies, so selling off utilities, PPI etc was always going to cost the consumer more. It just makes public borrowing look smaller. State owned utilities don't have to be inefficient, CEGB was pretty good, as was the much derided BR before privatisation. What is needed is to keep Whitehall and Westminster out. You do need people with technical and project management expertise, who are capable of making a decision and sticking to it. I'm not sure that a degree in ancient Greek, Latin, PPE and similar qualify.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Only about 17% of MPs (in 2021) had a STEM degree …. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/stem-mps-pmbs/

Of the 541 MPs with higher education degrees in the 2015-2017 Parliament, only 93 (17%) held degrees in STEM subjects; for comparison, 46% of UK students in 2019 graduated in STEM subjects. This lack of scientific experience among MPs is at odds with the increasing pertinence of scientific issues and techniques to political decision-making. While an array of science-related issues, including climate change, security and privacy issues (related to the further growth of the internet), and sustainability of the healthcare system in the face of demographic change, are increasingly crucial to public policy, some commentators argue they risk being side-lined due to a lack of scientific expertise and interest among parliamentarians.

That % is probably also reflected in the staff they employ.

Although 46% of students are in the STEM field, I suspect the % of the electorate with a STEM background is much lower than that.

Ches

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

My take on the sewage system is that when the water companies were sold off. There was a loss of control as regards new houses being built and the necessary upgrading of the sewage works to keep the status quo. Because this side of things was no longer under council control.

I remember spending a Friday afternoon tutorial in 1970 at Netheridge Sewage works in Gloucester. At that time water going into the Severn was classed as drinkable. The site at that time was using large diesel engines to pump the sewage from the wet well 90 feet below ground up to the surface. These engines were running on Methane from the sewage decomposition. One diesel engine was specifically producing electricity for the site and the excess was sent to the grid.

I did ask the Manager showing us around which was better, the sewage plant or a Septic Tank. He said that a properly set up Septic Tank would win every time.

Having just looked at a satellite view of the site it does no look that much bigger than when I was there in the 70's. Yet Gloucester has had massive housing developments in the meantime. Which has notched up a gear in recent years. To the extent that local villages are starting to be consumed into Gloucester proper.

I could not find any plans to expand this site, so inevitably this site will be overwhelmed at some point. I did find, "they want to build 200+ homes next to the Smelly site" (words used in the Google search)

So much for the sales pitch used in the water shares sell off, "better for the consumer and better for the environment".

Regards

Gray,

Edited By Graham Meek on 08/08/2023 16:33:20

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I thought that part of the 'planning process' was that water companies etc had to sign off on them if there was sufficient infrastructure to cope? Someone please advise.

Tony

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Ches Green UK on 08/08/2023 16:14:57:

Only about 17% of MPs (in 2021) had a STEM degree …. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/stem-mps-pmbs/

Of the 541 MPs with higher education degrees in the 2015-2017 Parliament, only 93 (17%) held degrees in STEM subjects; for comparison, 46% of UK students in 2019 graduated in STEM subjects. This lack of scientific experience among MPs is at odds with the increasing pertinence of scientific issues and techniques to political decision-making. While an array of science-related issues, including climate change, security and privacy issues (related to the further growth of the internet), and sustainability of the healthcare system in the face of demographic change, are increasingly crucial to public policy, some commentators argue they risk being side-lined due to a lack of scientific expertise and interest among parliamentarians.

That % is probably also reflected in the staff they employ.

Although 46% of students are in the STEM field, I suspect the % of the electorate with a STEM background is much lower than that.

Ches

Andrew Bridgen is one of only a few in there with any integrity and scientific qualifications. The trouble is that whenever he speaks the rest of them walk out on him. It's quite sickening.

Martin.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Are we referring to the Andrew Bridgen who is a Covid denier, and was found by a High Court Judge to have lied under oath in relation to claims that he made in court about his family business. He was also found to have broken the MPs' code of conduct, as a result of which he made an "unacceptable attack upon the integrity" of Kathryn Stone (Independent Commissioner for Standards)

He's even managed to get expelled from the Conservative Party

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

The Wikipedia page expresses it a little differently … but I don’t have the stamina to go searching Hansard tonight.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

The Wikipedia page expresses it a little differently … but I don’t have the stamina to go searching Hansard tonight.

MichaelG.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2023 19:07:06:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

 

Martin.

The Wikipedia page expresses it a little differently … but I don’t have the stamina to go searching Hansard tonight.

MichaelG.

 

I don't think Wikipedia is very reliable with regard to reputational accuracy.

It is Duncan's accusation, so I assume he has some 'proof'.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 08/08/2023 19:29:02

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

Not actual Covid denying, but comparing use of the Vaccine to the holocaust. Feel free to disparage the veracity of the BBC

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

As I understand it water and sewerage companies legally have to provide water and sewerage for new developments but what they say they can provide and what they can actually provide are not necessarily the same.

If a council rejects a planning application because they believe that utilities can't be provided the developer just goes to appeal and often the council decision is overruled.

Although sewerage is one issue there are also shortfalls in roads, rail, doctors, hospitals etc that aren't being matched to the housebuilding. Down our way we have just been released from a hosepipe ban, not because our reservoirs are empty but because they can't treat the water needed or have sufficient pumping capacity to deliver it to the full network possibly because of leaks.

CS

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 19:27:15:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2023 19:07:06:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

The Wikipedia page expresses it a little differently … but I don’t have the stamina to go searching Hansard tonight.

MichaelG.

I don't think Wikipedia is very reliable with regard to reputational accuracy.

It is Duncan's accusation, so I assume he has some 'proof'.

Martin.

.

Hence my reference [or non-reference if you prefer] to Hansard … the words written there should be definitive.

The whip was withdrawn for a reason.

MichaelG.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2023 20:13:53:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 19:27:15:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 08/08/2023 19:07:06:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

The Wikipedia page expresses it a little differently … but I don’t have the stamina to go searching Hansard tonight.

MichaelG.

I don't think Wikipedia is very reliable with regard to reputational accuracy.

It is Duncan's accusation, so I assume he has some 'proof'.

Martin.

.

Hence my reference [or non-reference if you prefer] to Hansard … the words written there should be definitive.

The whip was withdrawn for a reason.

MichaelG.

You're right. The whip was withdrawn because he broke ranks and asked awkward questions.

Martin.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by duncan webster on 08/08/2023 19:37:36:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 18:55:51:

A "Covid denier" you say – can you back that up?

Martin.

Not actual Covid denying, but comparing use of the Vaccine to the holocaust. Feel free to disparage the veracity of the BBC

So he's not a "Covid denier".

He expressed a view about the adverse effects of the vaccines by saying that he thought these effects were “the biggest crime against humanity since the holocaust”. I don't see how that diminishes the facts of what happened back then.

According to official figures, there have been more than 100,000 excess deaths over the last few years and Parliament has made no effort to investigate why. I find this very concerning and back Bridgen for asking the question.

Martin.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Is this not both drifting far from the original topic and drifting far too close to the rocks of p*l*t*cs?

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

OK, back on track. Let's say all oil production was halted – what could/would we use as alternatives and what downsides might they have?

 

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 08/08/2023 22:18:41

[RainbowsParticipant @rainbows]

I managed to shift a sizeable chunk of a workshop clearance auction by way of electrical assist pedal tricycle and bike trailer. Having gotten rid of the petrol I just need to find an alternative for the synthetic rubber tyres, wire insulation, battery casing, hydraulic hose and brake pads :^)

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 20:45:32:

I don't see how that diminishes the facts of what happened back then.

Bridgen’s comments don’t diminish the facts of the Holocaust: they seek to diminish the suffering of its victims and the moral enormity of those responsible for it.

Ultimately, people who make comments like Bridgen’s or endorse them in pursuit of some far right libertarian agenda diminish themselves.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 08/08/2023 23:18:57:

Posted by blowlamp on 08/08/2023 20:45:32:

I don't see how that diminishes the facts of what happened back then.

Bridgen’s comments don’t diminish the facts of the Holocaust: they seek to diminish the suffering of its victims and the moral enormity of those responsible for it.

Ultimately, people who make comments like Bridgen’s or endorse them in pursuit of some far right libertarian agenda diminish themselves.

"…they seek to diminish the suffering of its victims and the moral enormity of those responsible for it."

Where did he do that? Is over 100,000 excess deaths in this country not worth looking at?

I suppose you would be equally outraged if a nuclear weapon were described as more powerful than the one used on Hiroshima – or is that different?

Martin.

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