Use of coal, oil and fossil fuels

[JAParticipant @ja]

So far I have stayed away from this topic but I now feel like saying something.

1. Global warming is happening.
2. It is more than likely caused by manfind's use of fossil fuel.
3. Mankind must reduce its reliance on carbon based energy.
4. Carbon Neutral is not a hoax. It is a target to aim for.
5. The reaction to ignore it because of its complexities and inplications is not surprising.
6. To overcome the problem needs courage, understanding, patience etc. All these are missing in our present leaders and much of industry. It also requires some form of World leadership!!

As an engineer who specialised in thermodynamics all the can be explained by entropy. To argue about heat pumps misses the point.

JA

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Can you cite your sources, Samsaranda? I would be interested to read more.

Re population; you may be right, but how do you reduce it? How do you tell people not to have more than 2 children, and how would you enforce that?

Using and generating 'renewable' electricity has to be better for the environment than burning coal, oil, or gas.

 

Speaking of gas, I've realised another reason why heat pump installations are so expensive. At present, only a Gas Safe registered engineer is allowed to work on your gas central heating boiler. You are not allowed to even investigate or fix even just the electrical side of a boiler, and certainly not the gas side. This is why plumbers are so expensive – only they are allowed to work on gas boilers, so they can charge very high prices.

When heat pumps come in – which are effectively only large fridges, working in reverse – the guaranteed work for plumbers will dry up, since we will be perfectly able to maintain a simple device with a fan and a compressor, and no fuel combustion or emissions. So, I suspect plumbers are cashing in now to make up for lower income period on the horizon.

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Edited By John Doe 2 on 04/08/2023 12:31:30

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A heat-pump is fine within its limits: it needs to be connected to a system suitable for it (which may mean replacing all the pipes and radiators), in a home insulated and ventilated suitably for it (which means many existing houses are not.

Cost may reduce and reliability might increase with time; but you can't beat physics and they will not heat water to the same temperature as a combustion-type boiler will; hence needing an auxiliary, electric immersion-heater tank.

In theory at least the heat in the atmosphere is practically inexhaustible but an air-source pump seems to work better the lower the temperature-range for a given heat transfer (hence given electricity consumption). While others have pointed out they can freeze up, so presumably need an internal heater just to keep them defrosted!

'

What is the advantage of a ground heat-pump over air one?

The ground does not freeze beyond a short depth: it is rare except perhaps in parts of Scotland for that to exceed about a foot down. (Earthworms survive by burrowing below the frost.)

'

What is its disadvantage?

Apart apparently from needing a very large pipe array to be any use, the one question I have never seen asked is of depletion by the specific pump in its specific location.

Can it remove more heat from the finite volume of ground it uses, faster than Nature can replenish it? That rate will depend very heavily on the local geology and meteorology. They would probably be influenced further if all the surrounding homes use them too, and perhaps very variably as different households use theirs at different rates.

With a long, cold spell perhaps with a lot of cloud cover, or indeed snow, minimising warming from the Sun, combined with very low local heat conduction through the local rocks from deep below, how long will an individual pump's patch of ground take to regain the temperature and amount of heat it enjoyed prior to switching the worm-fridge on?

Longer, I suggest, than it took to cool it.

Conversely, if we determine the maximum heat extraction for the specific heat source, will that be sufficient to be at all useful for any more than frost-protection?

I suspect the proponents of ground-source heat-pumps look at areas of very high geothermal activity – as in Iceland but rare and far less powerful in Britain – as their exemplars, and will not think about real use in this country's extremely varied ground , weather and artificial (man-made) conditions.

#####

I agree with Samsaranda but I am afraid the root of the problem – too many people – is probably the hardest of all to address in any sane, humane way. That's why it is hardly addressed at all.

Anecdotally there are already couples choosing not to breed through fears of what their offsprings' world may be; but to what extent is another matter. Almost certainly the number of such couples is too low to be significant, and will stay so unless it becomes a very widespread fear, one enough to over-ride a powerful natural instinct in enough people.

The "Third" (or "Developing" as they seem to prefer) World people cannot be blamed for wanting more and better. They see the rich countries wasting precious resources such as water on idiocies like lawns in deserts… many of them lack clean, reliable, potable water just for drinking. At least the water is not finite, as metals and oil are: it all returns to the sea eventually. Similarly they can't be blamed for wanting fancy electronics or cars: many of them would not mind a simple telephone and local buses. (Nor would many in this country, mind having the latter…)

I fear whatever we do, the future is grim, maybe not as closely as 2050 but certainly much beyond that.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

The problem JA is that thoughtful debate is simply not allowed in these areas. Anyone with doubts or questions are immediately dubbed climate deniers and effectively silenced. Dominc Lawson being banned from the BBC comes to mind. So before we go any further let's agree that there is a problem with climate change and that emmissions are a likely cause.

Now lets look at the logic of "Net Zero".

If we make something in this country it has a carbon footprint. If we ship that item (to be made) elsewhere and then import it, it has no/zero carbon footprint apparently. If we drill for gas and oil here, then that's really bad but fracking gas in the US, freezing it, shipping it across the Atlantic and then re-gassing here is a much preferable strategy. This is what in finance would be described as 'Creative Accounting'.

People also have to have some hope that they can survive these challenges. EVs are touted as being much cheaper to run but if they cost on average £10k more to purchase, then (at £1.40/litre and 35mpg) I can drive 55,000 miles for free (that's about 14 years for me). Heat pumps may be great but if I live in an old, draughty house (as I do) and can't afford to upgrade (rebuild?) it, then heat pumps are not a practical solution to my heating needs.

So let's accept that the problem is real but that we also need real solutions that folk can actually afford. At the moment I believe that shortages (& the high cost) of energy are far more of a threat to my well being than anything else. Many more people currently die from the cold than from the heat and that's not likely to change going forward.

Regards,

IanT

 

Edited By IanT on 04/08/2023 12:59:49

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

A ground source bore-hole will supply about 6kW – (per day, I assume).

Yes, potentially the ground might eventually cool if we all had multiple bore-holes and extracted maximum power from them, but unlikely I feel, and again, not a reason to dismiss the idea.

Because we will need alternative energy sources from now until new technology, such as Thorium reactors and fusion reactors and tidal flow generators are sorted out, so we need something now to bridge the gap. And of course there are already alternative energy sources such as solar water heaters, (which can boil, even in the UK), and PV cells.

The problem with the status quo is that fuel is cheap – even at £2,500 per year. Even at this price, most of us can't be bothered to change – or cannot afford to change – with the current much higher prices for alternatives. £2,000 for a gas boiler versus £18,000 for a complete new heat source installation?? Not going to happen. The price of alternatives will need to be cheaper for most of us to change.

It would be ironic, wouldn't it, if too many air-source heat pumps over-cooled the atmosphere to below pre-industrial levels. ?!!! Wouldn't happen of course, because they just move heat, not create or destroy it.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

IanT,

I am with you and as I said earlier big money is controlling things not us, or the politicians.

Generally,

There is no doubt that there is a big problem with the climate. However we need calculated and well thought out solutions not knee jerk reactions which seems to be the current trend.

The stupidity of it all comes when burning wood pellets is carbon friendly. The carbon will be recaptured by the trees that are planted to replace the ones which have been felled.

How do trees capture carbon emitted from airliners which puts carbon in the atmosphere above where it would normally be found? I have not yet seen a ban on all fossil fueled aircraft by 2030.

Regards

Gray,

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Don't panic about overcooling your soil. I haven't redone the calculations but a m3 of earth yields 1KWh per degree temp change. So with a surface not borehole the snaked out pipe which covers a lot of ground has only a small effect which is very localised, to a couple of feet range because of the low heat conductivity of the soil.
One of the problems is the way people are still thinking of overheating their entire house rather than reverting to the position 70 years ago of just heating one room. Mid winter I think 500W continuously would be affordable so plan to add insulation until that is enough.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

As an aside to my comments above I feel that in some way I am doing my best at present to reduce my contribution to climate change because I currently have 4Kw of solar generation and 12Kwh of battery storage, on sunny days in the summer, not very frequent at the moment, I am able to be self sufficent and not draw any power from the grid, this only happens on selected days during June, July and August when the sun is strong enough, makes me feel good though.

In respect of my comments about the world population I was only stating facts and in no way do I advocate any methods of population reduction, the world population is what it is and nothing can change that. Dave W

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

The fires in Europe turned out to be started either by negligence or deliberately by activists. How many occured in zero populated areas?

The legacy media weather predictions were over the top and not borne out in reality.

The fear mongers are now claiming we have 'global boiling' – where's any evidence of that? My heating came on throughout July and into August.

Martin.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 04/08/2023 13:01:15:

A ground source bore-hole will supply about 6kW – (per day, I assume).

kW per day is not a sensible unit

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

DAVE W –

No-one is advocating positive ways to reduce the population. Well, I hope not. China tried but found it led to very undesirable results. The most anyone can hope for a is a gentle decline so the overall population does not become unbalanced in proportions of sex and age.

.

Martin –

The "boiling" metaphor was used by one politician, (head of the UN?), so what do we expect but silly language; though presumably others have latched onto it in the usual ovine way.

Anyway he was taking about the world at large, and some areas' heatwaves in particular, not just our gentle small region of it.

The forest fires thought to be by arson were not started in populated areas, but near enough to them to be at the very least extremely unpleasant or indeed dangerous.

.

Duncan –

Not only itself a silly "unit" that looks as if quoted from an advertisement. Assuming constant heat-flow (can that be assumed?), it is a mere 0.25kW/h, and anyway means nothing without the system's output temperature as well.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Duncan; No, it isn't !! I think an 'h' went missing, i.e. 6kWh per day, (per bore-hole), but I cannot remember now where I saw that figure. Somewhere down an internet rabbit hole no doubt.

To quote from Wikipedia:

"Since a heat pump moves three to five times more heat energy than the electric energy it consumes, the total energy output is much greater than the electrical input. This results in net thermal efficiencies greater than 300% as compared to radiant electric heat being 100% efficient. Traditional combustion furnaces and electric heaters can never exceed 100% efficiency. Ground source heat pumps can reduce energy consumption – and corresponding air pollution emissions – up to 72% compared to electric resistance heating with standard air-conditioning equipment".^[24]

And:

"Ground source heat pumps are recognized as one of the most efficient heating and cooling systems on the market. They are often the second-most cost-effective solution in extreme climates (after co-generation), despite reductions in thermal efficiency due to ground temperature. (The ground source is warmer in climates that need strong air conditioning, and cooler in climates that need strong heating.) The financial viability of these systems depends on the adequate sizing of ground heat exchangers (GHEs), which generally contribute the most to the overall capital costs of GSHP systems".^[57]

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

The most efficient ground sourced heat supply we have is oil, coal and wood.

Martin.

[Ed Dinning 1Participant @eddinning1]

Hi Folks, I seem to have prompted a lively discussion on these topics!

Summarising, we are engineers , used to thinking in a logical way and finding a solution to problems.

There is an Engineering saying, that "dross rises to the surface", from the preceding discussions I conclude that this has happened in public life; politicians of all shades, and their political advisors are guilty of this. From personal experience the higher echelons of the civil service are similarly mired.

It is a great pity there are not more Engineers going into public service, finance and the law or should that be justice?

Think carefully when you next cast your vote, but as Churchill said "Democracy is the worst system, apart from all the others!

Ed

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by blowlamp on 06/08/2023 13:28:19:

The most efficient ground sourced heat supply we have is oil, coal and wood.

Martin.

Three wrongs in one sentence! I won't explain why because Brandolini's Law applies.

I'm confident Martin can't justify his claims, but I sure we all want him to try. Watch this space!

Dave

[JAParticipant @ja]

Posted by Ed Dinning 1 on 06/08/2023 21:04:21:

Hi Folks, I seem to have prompted a lively discussion on these topics!

It is a great pity there are not more Engineers going into public service, finance and the law or should that be justice?

Think carefully when you next cast your vote, but as Churchill said "Democracy is the worst system, apart from all the others!

Ed

Well done Ed. You have kept quite a few members out of their workshops (if they still have one).

Engineers are not stupid enough to go into politics.

I agree with Churchill although I do not think much of the man. George Orwell said something like "there is only one thing worse than voting and that is not voting".

JA

Edited By JA on 06/08/2023 21:50:36

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 03/08/2023 10:41:08:

Posted by Chuck Taper on 03/08/2023 10:35:36:

Major embolism inducing rant:

There is no uncontrolled worldwide population growth. In fact (global) population growth is slowing and will begin to decline mid century.

Mr Chuck taper, how in gods name [sorry god] do you know population growth will slow and decline by mid century.

Tony

Start here

https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/TOT/900

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I seriously doubt that human population growth will ever stop

The poor reproduce at an amazing rate and capitalism always produces loads of poor people

Arab countries double every 30 years, Africa is a disaster zone, South America is trying to flit to North America

China is trying to help by digging up and burning the entire planet to try and emulate the wests level of wealth and stabilise its population

Pompei was a huge eye opener for me

It used to be a moderate town with Herculaneum up the coast a bit

Now the entire area is completely blanketed with houses apart from the immediate caldera around Vesuvius The human rat has expanded at a phenomenal rate

AD79 Pompeii is going to look like a minor incident if that thing blows again

I found the google picture, it's here

Edited By Ady1 on 07/08/2023 01:07:26

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

What happened to Tidal Energy?

In the Severn river the tidal range is the second highest in the world. We are an island surrounded by strong tida water, surely there is a way to harness this without too much stress on the environment?

Or is it that the money isn't there due the the usual short sightedness of the politicians.

It's taken years to agree to a new power station at Sizewell, it will take years to build it. HS2 is well over budget and is now a smaller project than it was originally planned. Crossrail took years to build went over budget and time to construct was longer than planned.

It seems any major project or change to infrastructure we cannot do very well anymore, the issue with all these grand schemes is that takes much longer to build and costs more than original costs.

I guess it's due to lack of strategic long term planning or is it a lack of knowledgeable qualified people at the top who are capable of making informed decisions.?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Much of cost and delays to these major projects is due to opposition from various groups and the complex planning approval process.

Nuclear, is currently the only viable mid-term solution to base load power production. This position would be strengthened if their excess power is used to produce hydrogen. This could be used to run gasturbines for peak load response.

There is a huge amount of money being made from carbon off-setting, biomass etc. IMHO there is too much emphasis on hitting numeric targets rather than finding real solutuons. Even without the carbon of harvesting, processing and shipping (often across the atlantic) of wood pellet "biomass" it produces more CO2 per kWh produced than burnng gas….

At last in the news recently there has been some coverage of the shortcomings of the power network to accept additional power into the network and supply it to were needed like motorway EV charging stations.

This is my personal opinion and may not reflect that of my employer or other organisation I may be associated with. (I do some work on this stuff as part of my day job and a disclamer is required).

Robert.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 07/08/2023 07:19:09:

What happened to Tidal Energy?

In the Severn river the tidal range is the second highest in the world. We are an island surrounded by strong tida water, surely there is a way to harness this without too much stress on the environment?

[…]

.

I’m not so sure about that, derek

Most of us are probably old enough to remember the popularisation of Chaos Theory and its powerful anecdotal image of the beat of a butterfly’s wing.

In our headlong rush to extract ‘renewable’ energy from every available nook & cranny … I wonder what we might trigger next.

MichaelG.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I seem to remember reading some where that extracting energy from the tides would slow the earth's rotation down?

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Does the investment on solar panels,various source heat pumps really pay off , the initial cost is high,whats their life before replacement is necessary? already there are complaints that servicing is a problem,my neighbour has solar panels but the controls and battery take up a surprising amount of internal dwelling space and already he is thinking about battery fire risk and looking at possibly placing the battery outdoors . I run my heating on oil,plus woodburner ,the boiler is the latest type as I could not find a relacement of the old type ,the new boiler uses the same amount of fuel,though I have heard the new gas boilers are more efficient, plus the new boiler is not so reliable,already had new oil pump.Woodburning is not cheap unless there is a free or cheap supply of wood,and to process and store wood to its well dry at times I have stored up to 100 cu yards of wood possibly more, plus a good log splitter is required plus a lot of work, Being out in the sticks a woodburner has served us well in times of power cuts and the current cost of oil.the earth wouls get along quite well by itself without humans, a few events over hundreds of million years has caused major wipeout of life but the planet has survived,though now its obvious that the earth can ony sustain a certain number of humans, only a collision with a lump of rock from space or a plague will regain the natural balance, nature seems to balance itself until man interferes, the black death did reduce the poulation perhaps another event could reduce the population by 50% and save us, .

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Once we get off-planet we'll be fine

We need a Frank Whittle 2 to invent warp drive then Musk-Intergalactic for transport

All the gadgets and gizmos like fusion and crop splicing are only going to delay the inevitable for a species stuck in a glass bowl slowly getting grottier and grottier until it becomes uninhabitable

[Clive SteerParticipant @clivesteer55943]

I think there is a certain amount of hype about all the "alternative" sources of energy. For instance heat pumps are being hailed as the saviour and efficiencies of 300% are being quoted. However these are the best and actuals may be less when outside air temp is low and may reduce to zero if OAT is very low. The downside of this is that just when you need heat it can't supply it. There are also difficulties heating to the 40C needed for our style of wet convection radiator systems. Better efficiency may be obtained if convection radiators are "blown" or hot air used directly. However the biggest problem is that a large proportion of our housing stock has poor thermal performance which can be very costly to improve. I'm not sure that even modern houses are built to the best thermal performance achievable at moderate cost so these properties will become too costly in the future. If we all move to heat pumps plus electric cars our Grid will have to double or even triple in capacity.

The plan is a good idea but we should have started it 50 years ago!

CS

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