US/UK Lexicon

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Ian S C on 23/01/2019 12:31:28:

I presume that you mean by Mole Wrench, you mean Vice Grips, I think that's what most Kiwis would call them.

Ian S C

Or as a book of typos and 'shrdlu howslers' I had as a teenager put it:

"For every motorist: the self-grip wench"

N.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 23/01/2019 14:56:44:

Slightly (only ?) off topic; I believe that they were invented about 55 years ago by a young man called Mole, who lived somewhere near Cheslyn Hay in the West Midlands of UK, and have been copied, many times, with varying degrees of success, and quality ever since.

Howard..

You may be thinking of Adrian Mole, who is 50 3/4.

Neil

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/01/2019 09:02:16:

As a teenager making plastic kits, I thought such might be a way to make a living.

Perhaps fortunately, I never followed it up.

The most hilarious instructions I ever read were in pure English, for a 'Void Bush Remover', but you had to have a particularly dirty mind to get the humour.

Neil

"I know exactly what you are saying to yourself, you wicked lot. You’re the sort of people that get me a bad name!" – Max Miller (Thanks to Demonperformer for reminding me of that one)

It starts with plastic kits but to make a living at it, you have to be prepared to go up in scale.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 16:37:38:

Film models have come a long way since Fireball XL5. Although well made I suspect it was based on a plastic bleach bottle!

Dave

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Most of the early Anderson stuff was made from wood, at least the hero models. Balsa and Jelutong were favourites because the lighter the models, the thinner the wires they could use (and cheapness). Guest models would often be cobbled together from plastic kits and household items. By the time they reached Captain Scarlet and the Thundebirds feature films, fibreglass was coming in. I was a huge fan and had the annuals, comics and records, and it's why I now do what I do. Ironically, Steve Begg the FX director on Casino Royale and I, standing in the model hangar above, were joking how much we would both love to reshoot the Thunderbird 2 launch sequence but with models the size and budget we had on the Bond movies.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 17:30:24:

… I was a huge fan and had the annuals, comics and records, and it's why I now do what I do. …

I've still got my Supercar licence somewhere!

Your first picture of the Skyfleet airliner is amazing – I can't tell it's a model at all. The second photo is only betrayed by that giant sneaking into shot. Apart from the quality of the aircraft and hangar there are loads of small details in the background that make it completely real, at least on my computer. Even on a big screen at the cinema I never spotted which parts of the film was done with models.

As a youngster in addition to Gerry Anderson's work, I was very struck by Oliver Postgate and Ray Harryhausen. All still watchable today and very impressive considering how little money was spent and no CGI. Brilliant.

Dave

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Something unseen in the film but visible in the background of the photo is the second aircraft under construction complete with internal framework and engine panels off. I'm glad you didn't realise it was a model because it meant we did our job well.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 16:36:18:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 23/01/2019 09:02:16:

As a teenager making plastic kits, I thought such might be a way to make a living.

Perhaps fortunately, I never followed it up.

The most hilarious instructions I ever read were in pure English, for a 'Void Bush Remover', but you had to have a particularly dirty mind to get the humour.

Neil

"I know exactly what you are saying to yourself, you wicked lot. You’re the sort of people that get me a bad name!" – Max Miller (Thanks to Demonperformer for reminding me of that one)

It starts with plastic kits but to make a living at it, you have to be prepared to go up in scale.

I meant translating instruction leaflets!

But have made some income from modelling – Dartmoor!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 18:10:10:

Something unseen in the film but visible in the background of the photo is the second aircraft under construction complete with internal framework and engine panels off. I'm glad you didn't realise it was a model because it meant we did our job well.

Must be a fun job.

You remind me I greatly enjoyed a 'Tank Talk' by the stuntman who worked on Godleneye and Kelly's Heroes amongst others – Jim Dowall. Great stories of modifying T55s to run on Centurion tracks and even make a lightweight fibreglass one on a Saracen chassis for a single brief scene where it had to run along a waterfront road.

Neil

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 16:36:18:

..

It starts with plastic kits but to make a living at it, you have to be prepared to go up in scale.

Actually, I think that many Airfix kit instruction sheets of the late 50s – early 60s were written in an extremely clear and informative technical English, the like of which I've not seen since.

Learning this style stood me in good stead in the 70s, writing routing instructions for machining and assembly jobs in the mechanical controls industry, and later on writing user-specific procedural instructions for the use of computerised ERP systems. So there's more than one way of changing the scale to make a living.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

"Locate and cement part 34 to part 35."

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 20:52:50:

"Locate and cement part 34 to part 35."

Back then, they told you what parts 34 and 35 actually represented, and any special details of how they were to be fitted. And the sequence could catch you out if you just followed the exploded view, as many did.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

The days when "toys" were genuinely educational too. I probably learnt to recognise more aircraft from an Airfix catalogue than any aviation book.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Mick B1 on 23/01/2019 20:57:18:

Posted by Chris Trice on 23/01/2019 20:52:50:

"Locate and cement part 34 to part 35."

Back then, they told you what parts 34 and 35 actually represented, and any special details of how they were to be fitted. And the sequence could catch you out if you just followed the exploded view, as many did.

Mick, have you seen today's Airfix instructions? There appear to be no accompanying words at all. The pictorial approach is the way instruction leaflets/manuals appear to be going generally, and the loss of clarity in some cases is colossal.

Bad English translations in manuals won't change as long as corporate decision makers happen to be non-linguists, or at least people without the intelligence or humility to realise that translation is a specialised skill that you skimp on (and that includes handing over responsibility for it to a machine) at your peril.

I've done something of a study of Chinese-English translation and I can say with some confidence that generally speaking the only reliable translation work from Chinese to English done in the PRC is at the behest of central government.

On the UK/US lexicon topic and continuing the aviation theme, I do remember flying with American Airlines many years ago and being someone taken aback when we were nearing our destination and the captain announced we would be "landing momentarily". I caught the eye of my fellow passenger (who was also English) and said I hoped they would at least give us enough time to get off.

Two nations divided by a common language, still.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 23/01/2019 21:45:16:

…

Mick, have you seen today's Airfix instructions? There appear to be no accompanying words at all. The pictorial approach is the way instruction leaflets/manuals appear to be going generally, and the loss of clarity in some cases is colossal.

…

Exactly. The skills to write such instructions seem to have receded, along with the skills to read and follow them.

Edited By Mick B1 on 23/01/2019 22:06:54

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The pictorial instructions cut across language barriers which is essential nowadays. I have a problem getting enough appropriate pictures in our instructions, though we do have a lot of words as well. Which again is a problem with engineers in general and especially when they don't speak 'BBC English'.

I have never been able to understand why people needed the written part of the Mecanno instructions. when there were plenty of pictures.

We used to have to provide detail maintenance instructions for the RAF. If you have a box in front of you with the cover held on by ten screws why on earth do you need to be told to undo the screws to take off the cover. What you really always need is the type, thread and length of the screws for when you lose some. Next time you get in a plane just think of it, the maintenance was done by a bloke who is so thick he needs to be told to take the screws out to get the cover off.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 23/01/2019 21:45:16:

and being someone taken aback

Bang on cue an example of another kind of machine "translation" at work: I use someone else's computer for ten minutes and their undisabled (unlike on my computer) autocorrect/autocomplete function obviously doesn't recognize or like the adverb "somewhat".

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

One of my work friends has the surname Whitehouse which my autocorrect insists on changing to Whorehouse. Fortunately, I've caught it each time before hitting the send button.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Having had to amend assembly instructions in ten languages, only one of which I speak, I have a lot of sympathy for the authors of Chinglish instructions. (Translation came from the marketing budget, and the sales director wasn't willing to sign off any expense for a quality improvement – I guess some things never change).

Brian

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Bazyle on 23/01/2019 22:57:20:

…

…If you have a box in front of you with the cover held on by ten screws why on earth do you need to be told to undo the screws to take off the cover. What you really always need is the type, thread and length of the screws for when you lose some. Next time you get in a plane just think of it, the maintenance was done by a bloke who is so thick he needs to be told to take the screws out to get the cover off.

You have to know the expected state of knowledge of your target audience. You have to tell them what they need to know and point out what they need to check they've got right. You don't want to jam their brain with noise and make it hard for them to filter out the signal.

[Trevor Crossman 1Participant @trevorcrossman1]

Posted by Bazyle on 23/01/2019 22:57:20:

The pictorial instructions cut across language barriers which is essential nowadays. I have a problem getting enough appropriate pictures in our instructions, though we do have a lot of words as well. Which again is a problem with engineers in general and especially when they don't speak 'BBC English'.

I have never been able to understand why people needed the written part of the Mecanno instructions. when there were plenty of pictures.

We used to have to provide detail maintenance instructions for the RAF. If you have a box in front of you with the cover held on by ten screws why on earth do you need to be told to undo the screws to take off the cover. What you really always need is the type, thread and length of the screws for when you lose some. Next time you get in a plane just think of it, the maintenance was done by a bloke who is so thick he needs to be told to take the screws out to get the cover off.

Bazyle, if you took a moment to think about it instead of pouring scorn on people you would see that the reason for listing the obvious is not because the person doing the work is thick , but because it is necessary to have the work split into quite precise and unequivocal language describing the maintainance process. Within large organisations where more than one person might work on a task and part way through the procedure may be replaced by others, the work that has been done by each individual has to be certified, so that in the event of any failure or damage of the component or of the system of which it is a part, which may be a very heavy and fast aircraft, missile, bomb or critical communication; it it easier determine the cause and possibly responsibility for that failure.

Apart from the legal aspects, there are very many aviation components where the internal components are assembled by the manufacturer in such a way that it is imperative that it must be dismantled in a precise order to prevent damage to the internals or possible injury to the operator. This is particularly so with military and other public and civil organisations equipment because it is taxpayers money that is involved and are everyone in those organisations are, quite rightly, held legally responsible for the use of it.

Trevor

It may well be obvious that

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Lack of precise instructions for aircraft engineers was involved in the reverse fitting of a helicopter tail rotor! The aircraft had been in service for over 10 years before the problem occured and the result was quite exciting!! A similar lack of specifics produced the failure to lubricate the main rotor head on the same type – even more exciting but, through pure luck, non-fatal. Give me over-verbose instructions every time on aircraft, please … and dedicated people who read and comply!!

rgds

Bill

[Philip RoweParticipant @philiprowe13116]

Posted by Cornish Jack

exciting but, through pure luck, non-fatal. Give me over-verbose instructions every time on aircraft, please … and dedicated people who read and comply!!

rgds

Bill

But this can also lead to problems with people not reading work instructions simply because they are over done and too precise. In a previous life I used to write work instructions in an electronics environment and it was always a fine line between writing something that would enable someone walking in off the street to understand and going to the opposite extreme e.g. "pick up a number 2 Pozidrive screwdriver in your right hand and using a fastener from bin xxx, attach bracket Y from bin abc and tighten to x Nm". OK, I could go on but I think you get the picture. Maybe I was just unlucky in not having the dedicated people who read and comply.

Phil

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Philip Rowe on 24/01/2019 16:50:19:

Posted by Cornish Jack

exciting but, through pure luck, non-fatal. Give me over-verbose instructions every time on aircraft, please … and dedicated people who read and comply!!

rgds

Bill

But this can also lead to problems with people not reading work instructions simply because they are over done and too precise. In a previous life I used to write work instructions in an electronics environment and it was always a fine line between writing something that would enable someone walking in off the street to understand and going to the opposite extreme e.g. "pick up a number 2 Pozidrive screwdriver in your right hand and using a fastener from bin xxx, attach bracket Y from bin abc and tighten to x Nm". OK, I could go on but I think you get the picture. Maybe I was just unlucky in not having the dedicated people who read and comply.

Phil

That's why I say you need to know your audience and aim at the balance of interest and current knowledge you think they have. If they ain't got neither they ain't fit for the job.

[Author]

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